Thursday, 2021-06-03

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sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 202107:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Jun  3 07:00:00 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and hebave.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:00
ExTechOpWe promise to hebave well.07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä -- community07:00
sledges(there's a crypting message there somewhere;)07:00
karry_#info Lukas Karas - community, developer07:00
ViGe#info Ville Nummela -- Sailor @ Jolla07:01
abr#info Andrew Branson - sailing by07:01
fridl#info fridlmue - community07:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla07:01
sledgesabr: from where to where?:)07:01
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:01
abrsledges: who knows, man? who knows07:02
pketo#info Pami Ketolainen, Sailor @ Jolla07:03
sledgesjolla 5:4 community07:04
lbt#info David Greaves, Sailor @ Jolla07:04
lbtmake that 607:04
sledgesgoooo ... ooo ... al07:04
jpetrell#info Joona Petrell, sailor at Jolla07:05
sledgeshmm at least ddobrev could score one for the team07:05
sledges(he's got 3 topics today)07:05
sledges#topic Bluetooth with Android applications (15min -- asked by ddobrev)07:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Bluetooth with Android applications (15min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:06
sledges#info <ddobrev> Some Android applications cannot function without Bluetooth and have no equivalent so this is important. Let's discuss the technical challenges and the possible solutions and deadlines.07:06
sledges#info <Jolla> We are looking into this, but we do not have any schedule to announce on this.07:07
sledgesit's a truly sore topic, especially now that i got given a fitbit:))07:07
ApBBByou can always write a native app for fitbit X-P07:08
flypigAmazfit has a plugin interface, it'd be great to have a fitbit one.07:08
sledgestrue, i hope it's not too closed down and this still works:
flypigNice :)07:09
ApBBBi have to get this off my chest but it pains me that we have so many support requests for android stuff. (in the forum and everywhere). yes i know SFOS isn't there yet for many things but it pains me =(07:09
fridlwould be also very nice for all the garmin stuff. There protocol hacking seems to be a issue there. And for outdoor activities it really is some kind of standard device.07:09
fridl(Also i would love a native solution there!)07:10
sledges#info (in the meantime, talking about community (and sailors' freetime) writing native support for popular BT accessories, here's one hopeful for fitbit:)07:11
flypigApBBB, we unfortunately live in a world of closed APIs and proprietary apps.07:12
sledgesbut for the open parts, it only takes someone to plant a seed, and then hopefully more PRs come in:)07:14
ApBBB@flypig yes i know that, and i also know that these wont come until we have a big enough userbase. I personally make the choice to not use them.07:14
flypigsledges, yes!07:14
sledgesFernschreiber being a very good example07:14
sledgesbut i digress, maybe time to move to another Q07:14
sledges#topic Upgrading to 64-bit on older devices (5min -- asked by ddobrev)07:15
*** sailbot changes topic to "Upgrading to 64-bit on older devices (5min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:15
flypigApBBB, I honestly admire your resolve.07:15
sledges#info <ddobrev> Many devices Jolla supports are 64-bit but so far 64-bit Sailfish is only offered for Xperia 10 II. Let's discuss when we can expect support for all devices and how it would proceed, such as upgrading in place or first saving all data and then transferring it back.07:15
sledges#info <Jolla> Upgrading devices to 64-bit would require all users to reflash and for Jolla to support double amount of product lines. There are not many tangible benefits of 32-bit vs 64-bit Sailfish OS that would accellerate such transition.07:15
sledges#info <Jolla> We will try to address this matter differently, such as figuring out ways on how to support Sailfish OS community ports (that could then include 64-bit variants of existing adaptations) better in the future of Sailfish X program.07:15
fridlthat is a great Idea. If there is a way to fuel the community ports with the license-only components this would mean a huge step (imho)07:17
ApBBBfor things like exchange yes. for things like preddictive text it would be nice to have an open solution for everything so the community can contribute and maybe ???? save some money for jolla (not having to pay for a lisence)07:19
ApBBBthere was a discussion waaaayyyy back in the day for something like that07:19
sledgesApBBB: very true, because Jolla's predictive text is limited only to a handful of 'early' languages07:19
ApBBBi know the pain. my language isn't supported07:20
sledgesif Presage could be integrated out-of-process, then licensing issues could be addressed07:20
sledgesbut if Presage has some UTF limitations, there has been another effort by ljo and his team07:20
sledgesso hope for better news in the future for all SFOS languages07:21
sledgesmoving on07:21
sledges#topic Update on the future of the community OBS (7200sec -- asked by piggz)07:21
*** sailbot changes topic to "Update on the future of the community OBS (7200sec -- asked by piggz) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:21
sledges#info <piggz> It has been some time since an update was given on the future of the community OBS, can you give one? Read the rest about the topic here:07:22
sledges#info <Jolla> Community OBS has been given an extension of at least another 12 months:07:22
sledgesddobrev's hattrick has been interrupted by piggz:)07:22
* sledges curious if piggz was the first to ask this question, or us starting to write that forum post obs news:)07:23
lbtI think he asked first... but I didn't know :D07:23
sledgeswell, we have 7130 seconds remaining on this topic, but...07:24
sledgeswhere's piggz?:))07:24
lbtSo we have quite limited resources available to work on the OBS at the minute07:24
lbtwe need to do OS updates on multiple machines and then upgrade the OBS itself07:25
sledgesrinigus: ^^07:25
lbtthere are side-issues such as the dependency on webhooks07:25
lbtwhich needs yet another machine updating07:25
lbtso there's a lot to do under the hood07:25
sledgesmachine jenga!07:25
lbtyes - many rabbit holes :/07:26
lbtonce that's all up and running we then need to get the aarch64 version building07:26
lbtI'm hoping that will just work as by then we'll have the same OBS version as we use internally07:26
sledges#info <lbt> we need to do OS updates on multiple machines and then upgrade the OBS itself07:27
lbtthe bad news is that the UK is looking quite sunny...07:27
lbtI've had offers of help but there's nothing that can realistically be handed off right now. However it's nice that the offers were made :)07:28
sledgesjfdi? :D07:30
lbt#info There will be OBS downtime - and probably for extended periods - sorry!07:32
sledgesprobably piggz' and rinigus' apps are the main ones being blocked from going 6407:32
ApBBBrinigus rolled his own tool07:32
sledgesand they are covered in our today's flypig's edition of...07:32
flypigThanks for the plug sledges :)07:33
sledgestried to transition smoothly, like some youtuber towards ads:)07:33
flypigHaha. Pretty smooth :)07:34
ApBBB"todays chat session is sponsord by _insert popular YT advert_"07:34
sledgesstill, i'm not an op ;)07:34
sledges@smooth - a very old popular song07:34
sledgesok, moving on07:34
sledges#topic UI responsiveness (15min -- asked by ApBBB)07:35
*** sailbot changes topic to "UI responsiveness (15min -- asked by ApBBB) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:35
sledges#info <ApBBB> Many have observed that SFOS doesn't feel snappy enough compared to the competition (be it scrolling, transitions of various UI elements etc) and this is not something that has to do with HW. There have been patches that "fix" the situation but jolla hasn't commented in any of the topics.07:35
sledges#info <ApBBB> So is it something technical behind all that or just an area that there hasn't been any time spend by the devs. And has jolla been discussing any of that internally. Forum topic for reference:07:35
sledges#info <Jolla> There is definitely room for improvement. We have been shortening transitions (app launch, page opening, sliding in App Grid and other panels) and shortening gesture trigger thresholds (e.g. long-press time out, flicking Home carousel, etc.) in the last few years, but the performance is the kind of work that is never really complete.07:35
sledges#info <Jolla> Recently sandboxing caused a bit of regression to the app launch times, but future Qt upgrade should give Sailfish OS notable speed increase through the pre-compilation of QML code, the programming language of the UI. The recent Browser upgrades have greatly improved the speed of handling modern websites.07:36
jpetrellSailfish UI is inheretly a Qt/QML stack, benefits and suffers from many root qualities of QML and underlying scene graph there07:37
ApBBBthere are some things that are affected by QT the Browser engine etc. That is not the area that i wanted to talk about. the transitions are handled by QML afai understand and there are numbers in there that control them.07:37
ApBBBthere is a patch in openrepos somewhere that changes these numbers and makes things faster07:38
flypigApBBB, is your concern the type/speed of the animations, or that the animations are dropping frames?07:38
ApBBBits those stuff that IMO at least affect the responsiveness of the OS07:38
ApBBBtype speed07:38
jpetrellwhat transitions specifically?07:38
ApBBBjpetrell hmmm from one page to another for example (tap something in the settings the movement to the next page feels slow)07:39
ApBBBin the forum topic many more are mentioned07:40
jpetrellpage loading was made quite much faster in Sailfish 3 times. most pages take 200-300ms to load so going any faster will just cause you to see the additional fade in transition07:41
jpetrellwhen we get precompilation of QML that 200-300ms goes down07:41
jpetrellapp launch transition has few parameters which make app fade in faster, but that then start breaking on various occasions. we need more coupling with lower levels to be able to speed those transitions more07:41
jpetrellany work on the area will definitely lead to improvements. we periodically visit the transitions and usualle shave off hundreds of milliseconds here and there07:43
jpetrellkeyboard transitions are one area where I would really like us to improve, but it is also tricky to sync app (native, Android) drawing with composed keyboard window07:44
sledges5 more mins on the topic07:44
flypigIt would be interesting to know the timings people are using with the patch discussed in the thread.07:45
ApBBBi am ok with the explanation by jpetrell.07:45
jpetrellalso more examples of transitions that feel particularly slow are welcome. we have hundreds :)07:46
ApBBBwe can discuss further in the forum topic if someone wants to add something07:46
sledges#info Further reducing transition timing may bring other visual quirks such as delayed rendering07:47
jpetrellyes lets do. this is one of my favourite topics :)07:48
sledges#info Findings of reducing delays successfully via patchmanager are welcome, and can be discussed in that dedicated forum topic07:48
jpetrellI would like to see everything load semi-instantly, but preloading is a balancing act of using too much resources. and some improvements would require substantial rewrites07:48
sledgescool! let's move forward07:48
sledges#topic Download all e-mail at once (10min -- asked by ddobrev)07:48
*** sailbot changes topic to "Download all e-mail at once (10min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:48
sledges#info <ddobrev> The built-in e-mail client cannot download everything with a single operation. The only way to do it at all is to scroll to the earliest already loaded e-mail and then keep requesting small batches by hand. It's completely impractical for existing accounts with many e-mails.07:49
sledges#info <Jolla> The email loading heuristics during scrolling could definitely be improved. Downloading all emails from particular folder is probably impractical, but the view should try to preload more emails in advance and in smarter way to not get into the way of browsing experience.07:49
jpetrellplease verify we actually understood the question :)07:50
jpetrelli.e. whether this is about scrolling email lists or downloading full email content07:51
sledgesit's about scrolling to the bottom of the list07:51
sledgesand using pulley to load more07:51
jpetrellok then the answer is ok07:51
* lbt mutters about there being no "next email" either...07:51
sledgesjpetrell: Thunderbird asks how many emails to sync during an account setup iirc07:52
sledgesand also can be changed later07:52
* lbt looks at the 6000+ emails in his inbox and is glad they're not all sync'ed at once...07:53
flypigWe have something like that for Exchange (based on time), but not IMAP or POP I guess.07:53
jpetrellqt models don't hold your hand very much so these kind of things are unnecessarily difficult to do for app models. the original QML team experimented with models that would say to view "preload these 100 items will be there in couple of frames" instead of constantly asking for data just when it should appear07:53
lbtand don't mention the mailing list folder with 20k *unread* emails... I should unsubscribe...07:54
sledgesalso the search function now also searches in the server, so i'm curious what is ddobrev's use-case07:55
jpetrellemail view/model is not very well done. like gallery or browser it should let you scroll freely and then items would appear with slight delay if not already there07:55
flypiglbt, it makes me feel uncomfortable just from your description.07:55
* lbt is master of wierd use-cases that break apps07:55
flypigjpetrell, I could be wrong (didn't check the code), but I think we already have something similar to that for collecting messages from the messageserver backend. But it doesn't trigger fresh downloads.07:57
sledgesit's time to move to general discussion07:58
jpetrellflypig: cool07:58
sledges#topic General discussion (15 min)07:58
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"07:58
* fridl reads the phrase "qt upgrade" from Jolla without being "forced" to talk about it in the responsiveness topic and got very interested... ;-P07:58
flypigI was just thinking that maybe whatever logic is there for that could also be used for triggering downloads. Anyway, it probably needs proper thought.07:59
lbttalk about scrolling always makes me wonder why we don't have better "labelled scrolling" ... as in the People app08:00
jpetrellyeah good idea. maybe n9 did this better way (used qmf framework for emails too)08:00
lbtlike scrolling through pictures showing date ranges08:00
lbtor emails08:00
jpetrelllbt: yeah we should do that. not rocket science. but work nevertheless08:01
lbtthose may have to be dynamic in the case of emails since the data may not be known - but fast scrolling then would be able to trigger downloads at the bottom08:01
lbthehe - it is indeed- and as you mention it makes the models even more complex to create08:02
jpetrelljump to date/section requires model to keep track of section idexes. each model is different so tricky to do as general component08:02
ExTechOpWhat are people's experiences with the brand-spanking-new Xperia 10 II release?08:02
lbtjpetrell: would it be a heirarchical mult-level model08:03
ApBBBwanted to touch again on the "inconvenience" of SFOS (discussed earlier today with flypic). On april due to an unfortunate event i was away of my main PC and hadn't moved stuff (passwords) to the phone. TBH i didn't miss much. I wouldn't have any issues with it if everything in my main browser was synced to the browser of my phone08:03
fridlExTechOp: Xperia 10 II experience is good so far. Some random app crashes and I particularly have some problems with Mobile Network (, but in general its a lot of fun so far.08:04
flypigApBBB, I've not looked at the FF sync sever API. But something to do that could be written as a third-party app using a webview and accessing the FF backend.08:05
ApBBBAnd for example this is something that we have an open solution for. Firefox has sync. The SFOS browser doesn't support it. Idealy Firefox would be the main browser of the OS but mozilla doesn't care much to put some resources on it. Or at least collaborate with jolla08:05
karry_@ExTechOp I have new shiny Xperia 10.II and first experience is good (after week of usage). It has some bugs, like screen freezing time to time, but I can live with that...08:06
ExTechOpfridl karry_ Thanks!08:06
ExTechOpfridl Switching between wifi and mobile data and back again seems to "always" have been a bit of a problem for Sailfish08:07
karry_btw, it seems to me that low-memory-killer is too agresive on Xperia 10.II, I would expect less app stops with 4 GiB ram. Is there some way to tune it?08:07
ApBBBflypig what i was trying to say is that if you choose your stuff (services, devices) carefully (ie my bank has a nice web interface) you can live without android. not everybody can but if you can tolerate a few inconveniences then its doable08:08
sledgeskarry_: if OOM kicks in when all memory has been filled up, what was the app(s) that filled it up?08:08
flypigApBBB, yes, I agree with you. You do have to choose your services, but it's entirely possible.08:09
karry_sledges, I am not talking about OOM killer, but about low-memory killer. It is different guy08:10
sledgeskarry_: in which scenario does it start killing?08:10
ApBBBflypig it also goes to show that if some issue that have to be solved on jollas side get sorted the phone will become even more usable. and this is a way of growing the userbase. the more you solve the more usable the phone becomes for more people08:11
ApBBBbut i get it that its a matter of resources08:11
sledgeskarry_: LMK looks like Android-only08:12
fridlExTechOp: yeah, it is a problem. But also some kind of a main task for a smartphone, isn't it?08:12
karry_sledges - during normal usage I would say - browser, email reading. I don't had time to look on it more deeply. It is just my feeling so far :-)08:12
flypigApBBB, it is a virtuous circle though: more users also equals more resources08:13
sledgeskarry_: android app support running too with some heavy app?08:13
sledgesbtw, what does community think about O{thisisnotspam}F{thisisnotspam}T{thisisnotspam}C irc? it sounds like a more seasoned/stable service and also in neutral waters08:15
sledges(and no one has hijacked mal's nick:)08:16
lbtI have been wondering how to get the community view on chat services08:17
ApBBBTBH instead of IRC i prefer matrix08:18
sledgesthat might come in the future, and have a bridge until then08:18
ApBBBfeels like going from the old phones with the round dial to a smartphone08:19
lbtthere are arguments for and against changing technologies as well as considering irc networks08:19
ViGeShould we create a poll on the forum?08:20
karry_sledges - yes. I will try to look on it, why it is happening :-)08:20
sledgesonce on matrix, then bridges could be created to any network, so people don't have too many accounts08:20
lbtI suggested that too ViGe08:20
sledgeskarry_: thanks, will try to replicate08:20
ApBBBViGe there was a topic on the whole situation08:20
sledgeswe need a short-term solution, and matrix isn't one of them08:21
sledgesi only asked about the opinion on the abovementioned irc option as most technical and practical aspects within the company veer toward it08:22
ExTechOpI haven't checked for a while, what is the current support for device connectivity, eg. to what extent can I expect a PC USB-C "docking station" with things like ethernet, displays, cameras, keyboards to work when plugged into a Sailfish phone?08:22
sledgeskeyboard yes, and audio also surprisingly yes iirc, no display though08:23
flypigThere was someone doing work on external displays...08:24
ExTechOpI remember once on a whim plugging in a mouse and being surprised the UI had some kind of support for it.08:24
ApBBBdoesn;t this mean that the compositor needs to be patched heavily?? to have external monitors?08:25
ApBBBon sfos08:25
sledges#info about external displays effort:08:27
flypigThat's it; thanks sledges08:28
sledgesi knew i've seen it somewhere:)08:28
ApBBBour compositor also needs the newer wayland protocols (cough cough) X-P08:29
sledgesand on that bombshell it's time to end!08:29
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:30
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021)"08:30
sledgesProposing Thursday 17th June at 7am UTC08:30
sledgesoh hang on08:30
flypigI think that may be a bad day internally.08:30
sledgesscratch that, we do08:30
sledgeswe might have to do a bump-stop meeting now, and that would be the last meeting before the holiday month of July ;)08:31
sledgesProposing Thursday 24th June at 7am UTC08:31
ExTechOp24th would be day just before Midsummer eve.08:31
flypigMidsummers eve eve08:32
sledgesit says 18 is midsummer in Fi08:32
sledgesis our internal calendar wrong?08:32
ExTechOp(Finns celebrate both Christmas and Midsummer on the eve)08:32
sledgesit seems wrong haha08:32
sledgeswell let's hope not too many will take thursday off08:33
sledgesas any other thursday is worse08:33
sledgesthanks ExTechOp! i'll poke our calendaree person:))08:34
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 24th June 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-06-24T07Z08:34
sledgesthanks y'all and see you in a fortnight-and-a-half!08:35
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Jun  3 08:35:13 2021 UTC.08:35
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd June 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:35
ExTechOpThanks everyone!08:35
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday exceptionally 24th June 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here: No meetings in July - the holiday!"09:07
bionade24fridl: They proffessionally ignored your mention of Qt update after they accidently showed their internals. Afaik they already had Qt 5.12 internally, now it seems like Qt6 already works well enough for SFOS? Hope we'll see Qt6, but the GLPv3 License change of QtWayland remains the issue, I guess.09:58
bionade24ApBBB: You can't call xdg-shell the "newer wayland protocol" anymore, IIRC it's now 4 years stable and 6 years with beta. It's a shame that Sailfish still uses wl-shell.10:06
fridlbionade24: haha, i hope Jolla has soon(tm) some more to tell about that. But I'm seriously happy to here them talking about it. So there is still hope :-)10:13
bionade24fridl: Afaik they always adopted newer LTS versions internally. But they made 0 progress on the law side of this one fuc**ng library wich uses GPLv3 instead of LGLv3 since Qt 5.8. Until they'll explicitly tell that's resolved, I keep my doubts.10:25
fridlperhaps SFOS should migrate to x11, lol.10:27
bionade24fridl: No way. Rather rewriting lipstick with wlroots as backend.10:31
bionade24X11 is abandonware, Wlroots is stable and works. X11 would introduce lots of App scaling problems we currently don't have.10:32
fridlSure, that was just a joke.10:32
bionade24fridl: :D10:32
bionade24By all the Anti-Wayland things that go on, I wasn't so sure.10:32
fridlbionade24: these people would ask to migrate to sysVinit first i think ;D10:37
fridl(sorry, i think we should move to the other channel...)10:38
bionade24fridl: I'm not sure if systemd haters and Wayland haters are the same, I actually highly doubt it.12:14
*** JvD_ is now known as JvD12:39

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