Thursday, 2021-09-09

sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 202107:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Sep  9 07:00:08 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Thank you Mr Branson for being the substitute teacher last time. I shall too expect no funny business today, especially from those in the back row :]07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:00
Nico#info Nico, community07:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor@Jolla07:01
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - sailor @ Jolla07:01
Dakon#info Rolf Eike Beer - community07:01
jpetrell#info Joona Petrell - sailor @ Jolla07:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä - community07:01
ddobrev#info Dimitar Dobrev - community07:01
meegouser#info meegouser, Community07:02
fridl#info fridlmue - community07:03
NicoSo Jolla is outnumbered, huh? ;p07:04
lbt#info David Greaves - sailor @ Jolla07:04
sledges"luckily" not by much:))07:04
* lbt steps up07:04
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla07:05
NicoWell, it is nice to not have overslept for once07:05
sledges:) let's begin the class!07:06
sledges#topic Is mpris usage [API] going to be allowed in the official store soon? (referencing podqast) (5 min -- asked by thigg)07:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Is mpris usage [API] going to be allowed in the official store soon? (referencing podqast) (5 min -- asked by thigg) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:06
sledges#info <Jolla> MPRIS API is being maturized for inclusion in the official API selection, but the target release is not yet certain. If you are technical you can follow the progress in Github even help provide review feedback to get it matured faster.07:06
sledgesthigg might have overslept this one:)07:07
sledgesi'd the answer seems satisfactory, so let's move on, many other topics to cover today07:08
sledges#topic "Always on" option (5 min -- asked by bfd_fr)07:09
*** sailbot changes topic to ""Always on" option (5 min -- asked by bfd_fr) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:09
sledges#info <bfd_fr> Some applications require the device to stay always on, not going into dark mode and lock screen, especially GPS/routing applications. Is it possible to add an "always on" button in the top menu?07:09
sledges#info <Jolla> Community correctly answered that apps should take care of that themselves (and it already works fine in App Support like Google Maps), for native apps use:07:09
sledgesorig. answer:07:10
ddobrevNot sure if this is related but I've had applications disappear after a while when the phone's been asleep.07:10
Dakonmaybe a general note about all this "target release is not yet certain" as that happens often for understandable reasons: maybe just provide some hints every 2 month about it "we plan in release +2", "has been shifted back 1 release because of no time/collision with other feature/$problem" (of course giving the underlying reason, not just a placeholder)07:10
DakonI guess that's what annoys people most07:10
sledgesddobrev: did their covers turn grey?07:11
ddobrevsledges: I don't know what you mean by covers, I mean their tiles disappear from the home screen.07:11
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:11
Dakon(that guy needs no introduction *g*)07:12
sledgesddobrev: yes, covers=tiles. that'd mean they just closed by themselves as opposed to be killed via out-of-memory. please retest with 4.2.0, as there have been low memory killer improvements (i.e. they will grey out but their tiles will remain:)07:12
* Nico mumbles something about the keepalive C++ API not being documented07:12
NicoMaybe I should fix that :D07:13
ddobrevI'll try.07:13
ddobrevBut I've had this happen numerous times with just one cover in total.07:13
sledgeslogs logs logs:)07:13
ddobrevOK, I'll make sure to get them next time.07:13
sledgesDakon: ok, i'll pass it on to try and be more clear about the reasons and roadmap07:14
ThaodanThere is this German saying: "Wer schreibt der bleibt" which roughly means only those that provide written evidence get to be heard.07:14
sledgesNico: thanks:)07:14
sledgeslet's move to the next one07:15
sledges#topic Xperia 10 II headset microphone (5 min -- asked by bfd_fr)07:15
*** sailbot changes topic to "Xperia 10 II headset microphone (5 min -- asked by bfd_fr) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:15
sledges#info <bfd_fr> On Xperia 10ii, the current OS version mentions that it is no possible to use a headset with a microphone on the jack connector. This is a huge annoyance, could you please fix is soon? Alternatively or additionally, can we connect a headset with microphone on the USB-C plug?07:15
sledges#info <Jolla> Headset's microphone is fixed in the next SFOS release (4.2.0)07:15
sledgeson the USB-C front I think UI lacks the selection (that's not to say we didn't have a prototype ready for such during one internal hackathon:)07:16
NicoYou should push the prototype into production (like the USB network sharing) ;p07:17
Dakonoffer a cli and ship that with the next release, there will be enough people testing it07:17
sledgesit's good to know USB-C gadgets use seems more in demand than we thought07:18
Dakonseriously: just make a big "I will test broken features" button, maybe hidden after "I get prerelease software" and just ship those things even in production builds, this will get you better testing than anything you can do internally07:18
ddobrevDakon: :D07:20
meegouserA "Sailfish Nightly" release channel :D07:20
sledgessome things can't be decoupled from existing important features that easily. I'd call the whole prerelease somewhat a testbed07:20
NicoWhich reminds me, the network sharing usb mode is still not installed by default. I wonder what the issues with it are :307:20
sledgesNico: it makes USB selection dialog even more crowded? need to make that optionable07:20
NicoI guess it does, but it is very useful during train rides :D07:21
NicoI use it a lot07:21
NicoAn optional package in harbour might work07:21
Dakonmeegouser: no, I meant just leave unfinished things when they are basically working and scheduled for the next release in the normal update, just disabled, so there is more early testing07:21
Thaodansledges Niko: To me the dialog is fine, 4 options are ok.07:21
Dakonwhatever works07:21
sledgesThaodan: we already suffer from words that get broken by a letter when trying to fit with translations07:22
sledgesgood thing we might have news in the soft-hyphen front soon07:22
Thaodanmaybe it depends on the language07:22
ThaodanFor German and English it works fine07:22
jpetrellproof of concept quality code done in hackathons often take shortcuts we cannot merge to product code07:23
jpetrellproduction code07:23
jpetrellalso if you can enable feature on command line means UI side still needs to be developed07:23
Dakonsure, I know how that works ;) btdt07:24
jpetrell:) 👍07:24
sledgesbeen there done that:)07:24
Thaodanmeegouser: That's what cbeta is basicly ;)07:25
sledgesgat (got a t-shirt)07:25
sledgestime to move to the next one (not talking about x10ii mic anymore really:)07:25
sledges#topic Is there a list of officially supported Bluetooth devices? (10 min -- asked by bfd_fr)07:25
*** sailbot changes topic to "Is there a list of officially supported Bluetooth devices? (10 min -- asked by bfd_fr) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:25
sledges#info <bfd_fr> Some applications require the device to stay always on, not going into dark mode and lock screen, especially GPS/routing applications. Is it possible to add an "always on" button in the top menu?07:26
sailbotRemoving item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x7f8a53ccc470>07:26
sledgeswell #topic is the #info actually:)07:26
sledges#info <Jolla> There are no officially supported Bluetooth devices, but there could be a wiki page where supported devices were documented. The support varies between devices (e.g. due to the adaptation version differences between old and new devices) so the support page should probably form a table instead of a list.07:26
piggzat least i can confirm the parrot ck3100 works much better with 4.2 ... totally broken previously :)07:27
NicoI feel like the outbput from MeetBot could be improved, when removing items. Seeing "object at address" is always a bit weird :D07:27
sledgesheh time to test this parrot over here too07:27
ddobrevBy the way, it seems to me on topic to express my disappointment with Bluetooth still not supported through the Android layer in
ddobrevAnd last time you did confirm you had the source code available.07:28
sledgesRome wasn't built in a day07:28
ddobrevOK then, how many of the 7 hills have you urbanised so far?07:29
NicoExcuses! Romans were just inefficient!07:29
sledgesi'll also express my wish that someone could port Fitbit to Amazfit:) using
atlochowskiSo what about to make a list of working bluetooth devices? It's a good job for community on forum07:31
Dakonthe more important part will to link all the bugtracker items where things are actually broken07:32
flypigI like the idea of a working BT list. Would it work formatted as a thread though?07:32
ViGeatlochowski: I agree. Someone just needs to create a post.07:32
ViGeflypig: I think it would work better as a wiki kind of post07:32
flypigYes, I think you're right.07:33
atlochowskiwiki kind of post is a good idea07:33
sledgesok, i'll move to next topic unless someone quickly creates a forum wiki post as placeholder to link here :)07:37
Dakonjust post it as a reply to the post where you announce the minutes07:37
sledgesthat's plan B07:38
sledgesmovin' on up07:38
sledges#topic Support for easily installing Google Play Services (20 min -- asked by ddobrev)07:38
*** sailbot changes topic to "Support for easily installing Google Play Services (20 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"07:38
sledges#info <ddobrev> Unfortunately, many applications depend on Google Play Services. Even if we as individual users don't particularly like such, they're often forced upon us by others. This is why it's crucial that Sailfish supports them. I'm aware of the legal obstructions, but I have some thoughts that I think can lead to a both safe and useful solution.07:39
sledges#info <Jolla> There are hooks to a script when starting App Support to e.g. add extra mounts to /system partition, however we would strongly discourage using GMS as that defeats the purpose of using Sailfish OS. Naturally, we cannot provide further extensions to facilitate this. We encourage to use MicroG:07:39
sledges#info <Jolla> P. S.: there have been notions that Google Maps cannot run without GMS or MicroG. That is not true: Google Maps runs just fine without Google Play Services and without MicroG, as opposed to this video (which is still very useful for installing MicroG):07:39
ddobrevWhy do you think it defeats the purpose? Privacy?07:40
sledgesddobrev: yes and if one wants android, should use android:)07:40
ddobrevIndeed, GMaps doesn't need the services, it just "recommends" them.07:40
ddobrevFortunately, rarely.07:41
sledgesand one cannot sign in to google account even with microg installed07:41
sledgesbut latest google maps now remembers your history locations even without signing in!07:41
ExTechOp(Has someone tried Google Chat, does it require full Google Play Services?)07:41
ddobrevsledges: really? Any way to delete them?07:41
sledgesyes, click (x) at each end07:41
ddobrevEach end in what, some list?07:42
sledgesyes, history list07:42
sledgesappears when tapped on "Search"07:43
sledgesfor destinations07:43
ddobrevHow recently have they added this? I don't remember seeing it.07:43
sledges~6months ago07:43
ddobrevSo I should've seen it, hmm. I guess I haven't paid attention.07:43
ddobrevThank you for mentioning.07:44
sledgesddobrev: so what is your proposal?:)07:44
ddobrevBack to the topic: does that link for MicroG contain instructions for Sailfish?07:44
NicoI thought everyone was using Pure Maps nowadays anyway07:44
ddobrevNot accurate enough, missing many locations.07:44
ddobrevThe author intends to add HERE but so far still intends.07:45
ddobrevsledges: so, I don't need gulag services per se.07:46
ddobrevBut rather their functionality.07:46
ExTechOpGetting MicroG working on SFOS is not quite trivial, the best instructions I've seen were by DrYak:
ddobrevIf MicroG is good enough, then fine by me.07:46
Thaodanddobrev: That depends on the backend. osmscout-server works quite good for me.07:47
ddobrevExTechOp: excellent, thank you!07:47
ddobrevThaodan: I haven't used complemented my pure maps with it, I'll try.07:47
ddobrevsledges: so, what ExTechOp brought up has been my point to begin with.07:48
atlochowskisledges can you make this post wiki?
ddobrevWhether it's the gulag services or MicroG, it's too difficult to install.07:48
sledgesatlochowski: done07:48
ddobrevFor example, Genymotion simply accepts a dropped zip with them.07:49
ddobrevAnd it works.07:49
Thaodanddobrev: Gulag is a rather unfitting word.. Please refrain from using it.07:49
sledgesddobrev: MicroG can be installed without opening cmdline once:
ddobrevThaodan: it's rather fitting for what they're becoming or maybe even have become.07:50
NicoIt doesn't read well in the logs though07:51
sledgesso, have we heard your "I have some thoughts that I think can lead to a both safe and useful solution" ddobrev? :)07:52
ddobrevNot yet so here we go:07:52
meegouserHere WeGo > Google Maps any day.07:53
sledgesah, the post by DrYak is good enough for now? I appreciate that installing MicroG on ever-evolving App Support is a moving target07:53
sledgesand truly the video by Leszek shows that MicroG can be installed without developer mode07:53
ddobrevAdd whatever infrastructue is necessary beneath so that we have the equivalent of drag-dropping the package in Genymotion.07:53
ddobrevAnd then don't announce it in order not to get in that legal trouble you've mentioned at the forums.07:54
ddobrevThe community will find out about it soon enough.07:54
sledgeswhat is Genymotion? any links?07:54
ddobrevOf course, if MicroG is that reliable and easy to install, it won't be necessary.07:54
ddobrevIt's an emulator for Android.07:54
ddobrevA few more words about their process since I thought it was famous enough:07:55
ddobrevThere are downloads of the services, as you know. The same ones used for Sailfish itself by people who've tried.07:55
ddobrevZip files.07:55
sledges#info ddobrev's proposal to Jolla, in case MicroG is unsatifactory07:55
sledges#info <ddobrev> Add whatever infrastructue is necessary beneath so that we have the equivalent of drag-dropping the package in Genymotion.07:56
sledges#link https://www.genymotion.com07:56
ddobrevThen one creates his emulator, starts it and drops the zip within.07:56
ddobrevGenymotion asks whether one's certain to flash it and after confirmation it does, requires restarting and after it everything works.07:57
ddobrevThe store, etc.07:57
ThaodanMy thought is why? Its Google it's the thing people want to avoid with sfos.07:57
ddobrevThis is why I said: if MicroG is realiable and easy enough, then there's no point.07:57
ThaodanThis sounds like it has some logic that takes care of the installation.07:57
Thaodanddobrev: MicroG still uses Google Services07:58
ddobrevThere's definitely the question, though, why people in the forums have tried the services to begin with in this case.07:58
ddobrevThaodan: their web-site says it's a reimplementation. Do you mean it still reaches the same remote servers etc?07:59
sledgesMicroG website says the like of:07:59
sledges"Service Core (GmsCore) is a library app, providing the functionality required to run apps that use Google Play Services or Google Maps Android API (v2)."07:59
sledgesand logging into google account doesn't work with MicroG08:00
sledgesthanks ddobrev for the input, we need to carry on08:01
sledgesI'd reply in BG, but my irssi is not on UTF-8 env now x)08:02
sledges#topic JTAG access to Jolla1 storage (5 min -- asked by Dakon)08:02
*** sailbot changes topic to "JTAG access to Jolla1 storage (5 min -- asked by Dakon) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"08:02
ddobrevsledges: could you post the easy (from the video, presumably) instructions for MicroG in a visible place then?08:02
ddobrevSo that everyone can see them?08:02
sledgesddobrev: MicroG and GMS are purely community driven efforts08:02
sledges#info <Dakon> as my initial attempt did not result in any useful information08:03
sledges#info <Dakon> here a more detailed question: please tell me which connectors allow JTAG access to the internal storage of a Jolla 1, and which adapter/settings/etc. is needed to download the eMMC contents.08:03
sledges#info <Jolla> Jolla 1 support has been discontinued. The problem is that we really shouldn't spend any time on products that are out of support as we have enough work in supporting the fleet of devices we continue to push out software for, and the new ones we want to bring out.08:03
sledges#info <Jolla> For example in this case a competent engineer would be digging the relevant bits of the specs and that requires effort that is instead needed on their other developments.08:03
sledges#info <Jolla> We also can't just share or publish the whole specs as they may be under NDA, and at minimum we would need to dig out relevant docs and have legal check on if we can share them or not.08:03
sledges#info <Jolla> At some point of product's life manufacturer will have to cut the product out of support and that's what we have done with Jolla 1. That unfortunately means that we will not be spending effort to find answers to difficult questions and as these are very detailed questions near to HW, we can't unfortunately now provide you with satisfactory answers.08:04
sledges<!-- end of response:) -->08:04
NicoAh, I misread it, makes sense08:05
* sledges (with community hat on) *cough* reverse engineer *cough* :)08:06
DakonI wonder who else if not the HW manufacturer will be able to dig that information out. So much to the praise of the community.08:06
ExTechOpJust out of curiosity, how many Jolla 1 users were there remaining at the time support was terminated, I believe you would have some kind of numbers how many units were visiting the store?08:07
Dakonsince it was still tested with 3.4 I bet some engineer would have to fix something around that timeframe and would remember how to find the docs08:07
sledgesExTechOp: i'm not certain such info could be disclosed08:08
ExTechOp(I know my original Jolla 1 was pretty dead at the time, battery replacements were no longer available)08:08
sledgesI just ordered HTC Desire 310D and another aftermarket battery replacements for Jolla 1 here08:09
NicoI stopped using my J1 1 or 2 years before the end, because the emmc was getting unreliable as well as the battery needing another replacement08:09
DakonI bought a Sony 10 II to be able to use Sailfosh, but just in the process of doing the backup the J1 died08:10
meegouserWeren't there around 10,000 Jolla 1s in use in late 2018, as written in a Blog post ("#StillUsingJolla)? Mine certainly still is still my daily driver :)08:10
Dakonand for fun fact the Jolla backup does not include all the Android stuff you have on the device, so it's pretty useless08:11
sledgesmy retirement-aged parents still have Jolla 1 each to keep in touch during pandemic:) hence the need of new batterie08:11
meegouserExTechOp: That's not true, there still are compatible batts out there, and new.08:12
DakonI have 2 working batteries here, you can have them for free together with another working J1 once I got my data from the broken one08:12
Thaodansledges: I think we are out of time are we?08:12
atlochowskiBluetooth wiki post is ready so please share your expierience with Bluetooth devices
sledgeswaiting for conclusion from Dakon08:12
ExTechOpmeegouser Could well be, but at that time I was unable to find them, and I've since gone the Xperia route08:12
sledgesthanks atlochowski08:12
Dakonsledges: conclusion: again a non-answer, and I'm expected to give up here because noone will be able to help me if not the HW vendor08:13
NicoMaybe you can give Dakon access to the relevant doc under NDA and sledges then gets 2 free batteries? :D08:13
sledgesDakon: thanks for the offer, but like I said, replacement batteries are on the way (received one called X-longer for HTC Desire 310, seems to hold up well)08:13
Dakonoffer is open for anyone else as well ;)08:14
lbtI'm just wondering what the goal of this is?08:14
sledgesDakon: ask around low level forums, JTAG is not a myriad of pins, should be able to reverse enginner the test points08:14
sledgeslbt: Dakon wants to recover his precious user data from a dead Jolla 108:14
Dakonespecially the Threema stuff, afterwards it can rest in p(eace|ieces) for good08:15
lbtjust checking that this is not really a big community project as such - more an individual task08:15
DakonJTAG are not many pins, but there are quite a lot of connectors on the board as seen on the pictures and I would like to know on which ones to start08:16
Dakoncan't be that secret not to tell that, especially for a dead HW platform08:16
sledgesDakon: should send photos to such forums, they might be able to infer a cluser08:16
Dakonthx anyway08:16
sledgesDakon: if ODM finds out a breach of NDA, it's not a good thing08:16
sledgesok, let's move ahead08:17
sledges#topic VoLTE update (5 min -- asked by marxistvegan)08:17
*** sailbot changes topic to "VoLTE update (5 min -- asked by marxistvegan) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"08:17
sledges#info <marxistvegan> It has been discussed that VoLTE is in the works, just want to get an update on the development.08:17
sledges#info <Jolla> We are progressing slowly, but there is no news to share at this point. Stay tuned.08:17
meegouserDakon: maybe give Qisda a holler, since they've produced it. :D08:18
NicoHow can I stay tuned, if my xperia X doesn't have FM radio support? ;p08:18
* sledges DABs08:18
fridlIs Jolla somehow in connection with ubports and/or sysmocom on that toppic?08:19
fridlto join efforts?08:19
NicoI guess we will get VoLTE before that is the only option for calls in Finnland08:19
sledgesfridl: I believe the same answer applies to your question too08:20
sledgesmarxistvegan isn't about, let's move to General discussion08:21
sledges#topic General discussion (15 min)08:21
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"08:21
sledgesany simpressions on 4.2.0 EA so far?:)08:21
ExTechOpJust installed it this morning, at least it boots.08:22
NicoYes, browser doesn't have a working close button and the tabs view opens slowly08:22
NicoBut I complained to mal about that yesterday already ;p08:22
meegousersledges: I read that Russian network providers are in plans to shut off their 3G networks in 2023-2025, has there been some more reliable info e.g. from Rostelecom concerning 3G sunset dates? Since Russia / the Russian Post are the biggest customer at the moment, I presume that their needs regarding VoLTE (which would very likely be a necessity in a 2G/4G landscape) dictate the priority this feature has at the moment.08:23
ExTechOpThis "Android subsystem self-reports isLowRamDevice()" issue seems to still be there:
NicoBut I am at least working on a solution:
sledgesmaybe can be addressed in 4.3.0 (as it's aleady in the works ;)08:23
fridlIs it normal in 4.2 on the X10II to have the systemd journal spammed with :'kernel: sec_ts 1-0048: [sec_input] sec_ts_read_event: event buffer is empty' and `kernel: binder: 6472 RLIMIT_NICE not set`? (don't want to have it debugged, just want to know if im the only one observing that)08:23
peperjohnnythe android networking situation seems to have improved quite a bit. Haven't seen any network drops yet =)08:23
NicoLink for slow tabs:
ddobrevTalking about networking, fix the VPN already.08:24
ddobrevIt keeps detaching.08:24
Nicosledges: Patiently waiting for 4.3, it will finally fix tracker on my phone (if it includes the tracker3 upgrade)08:25
ddobrevWhich is by itself normal for VPN-s but it doesn't auto–reconnect afterwards.08:25
ddobrevAs if you can't always save the credentials.08:25
ddobrevAnd of course the fact that the screen for reconnecting is a dialogue - lost as soon as another app's opened, for example to copy the credentials from.08:26
ddobrevI have to use a text editor as an intermediary, to add insult to injury.08:26
sledgesmeegouser: noted!08:28
sledgesExTechOp: thanks for re-pinging, may not have bubbled up the priorities list yet08:29
sledgesfridl: kernel needs to be made more quiet there, patches very welcome08:29
sledgesi'm sure it ennoys aosp sony devs too08:29
sledges(ennoys - near anagram of sony:)08:30
fridlsledges: thanks for the answer. I didn't change the loglevel, but it prevents me from giving meaningful logs to Jolla, as they are cropped due to to many lines i think.08:30
sledgesfridl: grep -v "sec_ts"08:31
sledgesoh, and binder and NICE too:)08:31
ExTechOpddobrev The VPN interface also has issues that the GUI data entry doesn't allow using all options (like setting the MTU for some 3G connections) that would be needed08:31
sledgespeperjohnny: great, even when returning from mobile data to your home wifi coverage?08:31
ddobrevExTechOp: so there's definitely work needed.08:32
sailbotRemoving item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x7f8a52929d30>08:32
fridlsledges: still the log is cut of in total i think as it reaches some length limit. Therefore the 5 to 10 min I want to capture are not at all in the log. (where it should be from boot i think.)08:32
peperjohnnysledges: yup works reasonably well08:33
sledgesfridl: gzip?08:33
sledgesNico: yep, tracker is currently slated for 4.3 inclusion (things might still change but looking positive)08:34
NicoHow do you guys even get all those fancy pictures all the time? Do you send out a Sailor with a camera or is the answer more boring? :D08:34
sledgesddobrev: a link to forum bug or to create one please?08:34
Nicosledges: Awesome! I specifically kept these files so that I can test, if the update fixes it :308:35
meegousersledges: Since you noted my question, where will potential new info be disclosed at? :)08:35
sledgesmeegouser: keep pinging us here for updates first:)08:35
ddobrevWith the clarification that switching networks isn't the only reason.08:36
fridlsledges: i think thats not the issue. When i do journalctl -ab it says that the log has like 2 min of length, even if the phone is up much longer, when I try to interact with it in my 'testcase'. I think it has a lengt limit of 1500 lines or something? And they are filled up. Could that be? (So everything older than like 2 min is lost i think.)08:36
ddobrevOften it drops while staying connected to the same network.08:36
sledges#info slow browser tabs:08:36
ddobrevsledges: too.08:36
NicoThere is a forum post btw, sledges:
ExTechOpSFOS has "always" had issues when networks changing, specially Android software won't properly switch over to a new network connection if eg. you walk out of wifi range08:37
sledgesyet the latter has improved as peperjohnny backs up08:38
flypigNico, did you create those tabs after the update, or were they carried over?08:38
fridlsledges: however, if it is not only me seeing that its already good to know. Wanted to help debugging with continuation in Ticket #38217 for logs. But as they are cropped i can't get meaningful systemd-journal. Thanks for the Info.08:38
NicoAt least so far 4.2 in general seems to be an improvement with only slight UX annoyances, that might be fixed in the future08:38
Nicoflypig: carried over08:38
NicoEven I don't open 500 tabs in a day08:39
flypigHaha :)08:39
Nico(On my phone at least)08:39
flypigAnd did you have private tabs open too?08:39
meegouserSince CEO Sami noted that Jolla has been profitable, are all requested Jolla Tablet refunds paid out by now?08:39
Nicoflypig: No, not at the time and I think I didn't even open a private tab at all before noticing it08:39
flypigNico, okay, thanks for clarifying. I ask because the image snapshot of the pages has changed size.08:40
flypigI don't know whether this affects things or not, but it's just useful to know for trying to reproduce.08:41
sledgesfridl: change your /etc/systemd/journald.conf file from volatile to persistent storage08:41
fridlsledges: thats what I searched for. Thanks!08:41
ExTechOpMy experience is that commercial Android software (like Tiima or Easybreak) have issues with network connectivity when SFOS networks change, even if you stop/start wifi/mobile data, and/or restart the Android subsystem. Sometimes the only solution I've found is phone restart.08:41
NicoI'll probably try to connect a profiler at some point (if I can figure out how to with the browser), if you don't figure out the issue before me :308:41
flypigNico, any info you can share will be useful. Thanks!08:42
NicoI think especially youtube videos might make the preview slower to load08:42
sledgesi think we should start putting the foot on the brakes, any other burning [platform] issues?:)08:42
flypigNico, in theory I don't think that should make a difference, but I'll bear it in mind.08:42
sledgesa'ight, thanks indeed for the feedback!08:43
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:43
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th September 2021)"08:43
sledgesProposing Thursday 30th September at 7am UTC08:44
sledgesback to odd weeks:)08:44
NicoWell, I can't make that, but I guess I'll be there the meeting after that one ;p08:44
ddobrevsledges: about burning, sounds worrisome, have you been able to find anything before the release to all users?08:44
meegousersledges: Any word on my question above? :D08:44
sledges3 weeks away, so fridl can make it:)08:45
ExTechOpsledges The time seems workable08:46
fridlsledges: as I expect unfortunately a short 'not possible' for my question it would be ok to have the meeting without me ;-P And still don't know if I'm back then from holidays.08:46
sledgesddobrev: android connectivity improved, but still random and not 100% eradicated as per that post and other experiences. text prediction selection freezes (not the phone), and is being looked at, hopes for a fix still in 4.2, battery life not degraded in our testings and daily, must be user-use-case-specific08:49
ddobrevOK, thank you.08:49
sledgesmeegouser: i need to ask about that:)08:50
sledgesfridl: have good holidays weeks on end!08:50
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 30th September 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-09-30T07Z08:50
sledgesthanks everyone:)08:50
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Sep  9 08:50:51 2021 UTC.08:50
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th September 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:50
sledges10mins to Finnish lunch, made it!:)08:51
meegousersledges: okay. if so, maybe worth for a section inside the next blog. :)08:52
ExTechOpOh, forgot to ask, why does the security code get asked twice during boot, once I can see, but the 2nd time won't even accept a fingerprint08:52
meegouserA security code so nice, they request it twice.08:53
peperjohnnyfirst is decryption and second is startup iirc08:54
flypigYes, and some devices have multiple user accounts, so the second is to log the appropriate user in.08:55
ExTechOpflypig But no fingerprint ID even for the 2nd one?09:02
ExTechOpAlso, there is a reason why "username" and "password" usually are distinct, the current implementation would mean that two different users can't have security codes that are independent of each other.09:06
flypigI think there are several reasons for requiring users to enter a PIN, other than technical requirements. 1) PIN is still considered more secure than FP; 2) Users should be asked to enter PIN occasionally so they don't forget it; 3) Not all devices are encrypted.09:07
flypigThese three are general arguments, not specific to Sailfish.09:07
flypigOn a single-user encrypted device, allowing FP-login directly after a reboot might be fine.09:09
flypigBut for other cases it may be better to require PIN, for one or more of those three reasons, I suppose.09:10
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 30th September 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:10
flypigExTechOp, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought concerning independent security codes; sorry.09:12
ExTechOpflypig Assume phone has two users, independent of each other. One wants to use 123456 as security code. The second user can't, they have to choose some other security code.09:15
ExTechOpThe phone could be a company phone, with eg. on-call use.09:16
ExTechOpSecond user would implicitly get to know the 1st users security code after being told they can't use that code.09:16
flypigExTechOp: ah, I see. That's not an issue in practice, because there are different users, and they're selected from a list.09:21
flypigExTechOp, I mean, you're correct about not wanting to combine usernames and passwords, and so it's not done this way on SF.09:22
ExTechOpI've never seen this, since I only have one user on my device. OK, this makes it clear! However, could not the user recognition be done by fingerprint instead of only the PIN?09:23
flypigExTechOp, yes, it probably could be, but I guess it's good to enforce my point (2) above (i.e. occasionally ask for the PIN so that users don't forget it).09:24
ExTechOpBooting means you need to enter encryption key, then a pause, then enter the user identification key, then another small pause, and then enter the SIM PIN.09:24
ExTechOpWhich seems a bit excessive.09:24
flypigThe flow isn't quite like that in practice.09:24
flypigIt will expect to log in the same user again, unless you switch users from the top menu.09:25
flypigSo usual flow is: boot, enter PIN, enter PIN, done. Alternative flow is: boot, enter PIN, select other user, enter PIN, done.09:26
flypigI hope I have that right!09:26
ExTechOpThe SIM PIN question comes up also, if you have that set.09:26
ExTechOpflypig In that case, it becomes exactly what I said above?09:27
flypigExTechOp, could you elaborate which bit above you mean?09:27
ExTechOp"Booting means you need to enter encryption key, then a pause, then enter the user identification key, then another small pause, and then enter the SIM PIN." and you can replace "key" with "PIN" if you wish.09:28
flypigYou mean it's like that if you're changing user?09:28
flypigAh, I see, sorry, I thought by "user identification key" you meant "user name".09:29
flypigYes, then you're quite right, that's how it seems to be.09:29
ExTechOpThree PIN queries one after another. I would argue the 2nd one could be a fingerprint identification?09:29
flypigYes, I agree, it probably could be, but like I say, you'd be dropping (2) in that case.09:31
peperjohnnyI guess the expectation would reasonable for users coming from other platforms, where they can fp after boot. Though I'm with you on being asked the pin sometimes :D09:32
flypigI'm sure this is the sort of thing that could be refined over time (and worth discussing), but some care is always needed, especially when there are many different cases to consider.09:39
*** martyone_ is now known as martyone09:43

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