Thursday, 2022-02-17

ExTechOpHello everyone!07:59
flypigGood morning :)07:59
attahGood morning!07:59
flypigI'm looking forward to hopefully an interesting meeting. Let's get started...08:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot08:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 202208:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Feb 17 08:00:40 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:00
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and stay away from the tiger.08:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor@jolla08:01
pherjung#info pherjung, community08:01
attah#info attah, community08:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela, Sailor@Jolla08:02
fridlmue#info fridlmue, community08:02
Keto#info Pami Ketolainen, Sailor@Jolla08:02
flypigNice to see everyone. It's quite balanced today.08:04
attah4-3 to community \o/08:05
flypigNext time... ;)08:05
TheKit[m]#info Nikita/TheKit, Sailor@Jolla :)08:05
attahOh well, can't complain about more particiaption08:06
flypigVery true!08:06
flypigLet's move on to our first question. Good that you're here attah, since it's from you!08:06
flypig#topic Calculation of minimum SFOS version in Store/Harbour (15 min -- asked by attah)08:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Calculation of minimum SFOS version in Store/Harbour (15 min -- asked by attah) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:06
flypig#info <attah> Continued from the discussion on the forum.08:07
flypig#info <attah> Adding aarch64 packages limits the minimum SFOS version to 3.4 for the other architectures too.08:07
flypig#info <attah> Ideally the minimum versions should be specific to each architecture determined by applying whatever magic to the individual packages.08:07
flypig#info <attah> From last time the question was brought up it sounded like that was hard to do with the current Harbour architecture.08:07
flypig#info <attah> So i would like to ask if it is possible to not count the aarch64 package in current checks - since getting 3.4 as minimum version is just as wrong as 2.0 anyway.08:07
flypig#info <attah> Many nice apps are missing for aarch64 due to this.08:07
flypigDoes that cover everything attah? If so, I can give the answer we prepared.08:07
attahAnd some time yesterday(?) Wordle for aarch64 popped up in store, so something moved?08:08
attahYes, go ahead08:08
flypigYes, something moved :)08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> Thank you for raising this attah. There's been a lot of earlier discussion about this internally, and it was useful to be prompted again to review it.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> The Hourbour Masters have taken another look at the backend Store code, and have found a way to accommodate all of the requirements.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> The changes have been deployed, so you can now already upload aarch64 binaries without blocking armv7hl binaries with support for Sailfish OS releases earlier than
flypig#info <Jolla> If you run into any difficulties with the version detection, please let us know.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> This is also a good opportunity to remind users that only the latest Sailfish OS release (4.3.0 as of today) is supported and receives updates from Jolla.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> Older releases may be vulnerable to security issues which have been fixed in the latest release.08:08
flypigWe also have Keto here, who made this happen, in case you have any questions.08:09
attahDo you have some insight into how the heuristics work that you can share?08:10
KetoIt now picks the oldest version compatible with any of the different architecture rpms uploaded08:11
attahNice, good to know - should work fine for almost all cases08:11
attahWith that i'm happy to surrender the rest of my allotted time unless anyone else has something on the topic08:12
KetoIt is in theory not the correct way to do it, applying different versions to different architectures does not fit easily in other places in the model08:12
KetoAnd in practice this should not cause any issues08:13
flypigIf an app is built against the latest SDK, it probably gets locked to something relatively recent anyway?08:14
attahI agree... my preliminary suggestion was to do that unless version_magic(aarch64) came out to anything more than 3.4, but indeed this should work fine too08:14
attah3.4 seems to be what you get from recent SDKs, via glibc i guess?08:14
flypigOkay, interesting, that's not so recent.08:15
KetoDo note that the compatibility there is purely checked based on the Requires that the rpm defines, so it does not guarantee that things actually work08:15
attahPerfectly fine by/for me... but having limitations just because "computer says no" is also not nice08:15
attahTrue - but at least in my case it does work08:16
flypigKeto, the developer has to do their due diligence?08:16
Ketofor example qml side things don't automatically get versioned dependencies08:17
flypigRight, there's no easy way around that.08:17
flypigOkay, well, going with attah's suggestion, let's move to the next topic a little early if there are no objections. We can always discuss further at the end.08:19
flypigThanks for raising this attah, it was good to be reminded about it.08:19
attahThanks for the fix08:19
flypig#topic Small/low screen mode for the longphones (15 min -- asked by attah)08:19
*** sailbot changes topic to "Small/low screen mode for the longphones (15 min -- asked by attah) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:19
flypig#info <attah> Continued from the discussion on the forum.08:20
flypig#info <attah> Would it be possible to get a cropped display mode on the longphones? 16:9 would be especially relevant and should work out of the box with apps and UI.08:20
flypig#info <attah> Use-cases include better one-handed usability, producing screenshots in the correct aspect ratio for Harbour, and adapting to possible future video output (Xperia 10 III).08:20
flypigThanks again for the questions attah. Here's our next answer.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> Good idea, although we cannot really give roadmap promises for such new features.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> Technically it is definitely possible, although it would require changes to closed-source UI packages like the homescreen so e.g. external contribution is not really possible.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> When working with the feature phone proof-of-concept we have had versions of the homescreen draw the system UI and apps in a smaller area (and e.g. with a virtual phone keypad below).08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> Productisation naturally requires a different level of effort, e.g. to do this in an architecturally maintainable way.08:20
flypigThat's the answer. Does that answer your question attah? Feel free to discuss it further.08:21
attahSounds good, and yeah -i was afraid it was partially in the closed bits08:22
attahI also found this since
attah"Support for external displays #93"08:22
flypigattah, could you summarise what's behind that link for us?08:22
attahSo a PR to the hwcomposer plugin that can take into account and use external displays... i only glanced at it08:23
attahI assume it deals with mirroring only, and i saw some things with geometry that looked like it could take change sinto account08:24
TheKit[m]regarding that PR, it is only for older HWComposer (pre-Android 8)08:24
attahOh, i see08:24
TheKit[m]some extra adaptation is needed for HWC2 when the first one is merged08:24
flypigIs that planned TheKit[m]?08:25
flypigI ask because it looks like this is all open, so it could be looked at by the community otherwise?08:26
TheKit[m]I don't know if it is planned, but could be nice to have on Xperia 10 III08:26
attahDefinitely would be :)08:27
attahAnd while you are here... how far away is video output on a device like the Xperia 10 III? (not so much in time as effort)08:27
attahMostly the similar improvement, or a long line of things?08:28
TheKit[m]hwcomposer2 part itself is not much, but it will be screen mirroring with current MR and different resolution of main display may cause issues08:29
flypigSo, it would only be expected to work with 2520 x 1080 displays?08:30
TheKit[m]it can be scaled, but then we have either black borders or cropping because of different aspect ratio08:31
flypigThat still sounds like a nice feature.08:31
flypigWe have a few mins more on this topic, anything more to add?08:34
attahIndeed, already a cropped output is better than none... and then if the os eventually grows a way to get this low display mode, i'd say it sorts pretty much all use-cases08:34
attahI think output to 4:3 is mostly academic at this point08:34
flypigAcademic because it's uncommon, or because those two cases would cover it?08:35
attahBecause it is uncommon08:35
attahA letterboxed version would do in a pinch... and most apps wouldn't know what to do with it anyway08:36
attahSo at least from my outside view cost/benefit stops looking good there08:37
flypigI don't recall what the Tablet aspect ratio was.08:37
attahwider than 4:3 at least08:37
attahor taller..08:37
ViGeit was 4:308:38
flypigJust checked... 1536 x 2048 pixels, 4:3 ratio in fact.08:38
attah16:10 by eye08:38
attahneed to have my eyes checked08:38
ViGeattah: there's a lot of black in the top and bottom, that's why it looks taller08:38
attahTrue, i did look at just the screen but was fooled all the same08:39
flypigOkay, we used up the extra time, so we should move on to the next topic.08:40
ExTechOpNon-square pixels is common in television, not so much with computers.08:40
flypigThanks for another nice question attah.08:40
flypig#topic Duplex Telegram bridge for #saiilfishos-meeting (5 mins -- asked by flypig)08:40
*** sailbot changes topic to "Duplex Telegram bridge for #saiilfishos-meeting (5 mins -- asked by flypig) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:40
attahThank you for good discussion08:40
flypig#info <flypig> During the last meeting we discussed how we could improve the community meetings.08:40
flypig#info <flypig> A nice suggestion from pherjung was to make full participation possible via Thaodan's Telegram bridge, which is currently read-only.08:40
flypig#info <flypig> We said we'd look into it, and this will be our chance to give an update.08:41
flypigSo, not really a question, but just an update on where things are at.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> We looked further into what's needed to provide full-duplex support for Thaodan's Telegram bridge.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> We concluded that meetbot would need updating to interpret the <user> prefixes sent by the bridge.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> Since the user assigned to the bridge can change, we've not yet decided how to tackle the issue of impersonation.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> We plan to look at this further in the coming weeks and try to get something sorted by the end of May.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> Either way, we'll set a deadline to give a further update at the 31st March meeting.08:41
flypig#info <Jolla> The meetbot code is open source python, so if anyone from the community wants to help with the update, let us know.08:41
flypigIn short: sorry, we didn't get it sorted yet, we hope to, but can't promise anything just yet.08:42
pherjungI'm not a python expert at all, but I'll be happy to try and help08:42
flypigI'm not a python expert either, but the code looked quite clean to me. I think Keto looked at it in more detail though. What do you think Keto?08:43
KetoYeah, so the bot runs Limnoria, and the initial idea is to see if a event filter plugin can be implemented that does some conversion on the messages coming from the bridge08:46
flypigLimnoria... This one?
flypig#info Meetbot runs Limnoria, the initial idea is to see if a event filter plugin can be implemented that does some conversion on the messages coming from the bridge.08:47
Thaodanflypig we are using this meetbot
flypigThanks Thaodan for the correction.08:48
flypig#info Jolla's meetbout source is
Ketothe meetbot plugin does not matter if the message mangling can be done on lower level08:48
Ketoanyway, if someone wants to take a look at that, you can ask me for more details08:49
flypigWe hit time on this topic, I thought it'd be a quick one, so let's go to general discussion and we can continue.08:49
flypigpherjung, please do follow up with Keto!08:50
flypig#info Ask Keto for more info if you'd like to help.08:50
pherjungshould I create a topic on the forum?08:50
pherjungperhaps other people would help08:51
flypigpherjung, can I give you that as an action?08:51
pherjungyes, I do it now08:52
flypigGreat, thank you!08:52
flypig#info pherjung will create a topic on the forum about the IRC-Telegram bridge update.08:52
flypig#topic General discussion (20 min)08:52
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"08:52
piggzPSA: chum for version finished building overnight08:53
fridlmueThank you, Jolla, for considering the suggestion of one of the last meetings to release an interim bug fix version if needed. This was a welcome surprise for the security issues.08:53
flypig#info PSA from piggz: chum for version finished building overnight08:54
flypigpiggz, that's a rebuild of every package in chum?08:54
piggzyes, on 3 architectures08:55
piggz190 packages08:55
ExTechOpYes, thanks for the update. Question from a dilettante: why was this handled as a OS version bump instead of just making a package update, does this somehow make it more widely available?08:55
flypigfridlmue, ExTechOp, good to hear it was welcomed.08:55
flypigpiggz, impressive :)08:56
ThaodanExTechOp: Because SailfishOS branches of every version of the OS08:56
ThaodanIt's just how we structure the development08:57
ThaodanIt's really like in the meego/maemo days I think.08:57
piggzflypig: less impressive is that atleast one node has now ran out of disk space lbt! :D
ViGeYes, in a sense it was "just" a package update. All package updates come with a version number bump.08:59
piggzout of interest .. aswell as the security update, it was mentioned that it makes upgrade to 4.4 easier .. how/why is that?08:59
flypigpiggz: pinged internally.08:59
piggzthx :)08:59
ViGepiggz: for some users the repository configuration was wrong. This update fixes it, thus fixing the next upgrade.09:00
ExTechOpAnyone dare to give estimates on 4.4 schedule?09:00
fridlmueExTechOp: I was afraied to ask, haha. I would more ask if Jolla would share what are the main blockers ;-)09:01
ViGeExTechOp: Would you rather take "When it's ready" or "soon(tm)" as an answer? :)09:01
flypigfridlmue, the best place to look to see what's being worked on is the repo PRs. I'm not sure you'll get anything more concrete than that I'm afraid!09:02
ExTechOpI already have a new phone I'd like to install :-D09:02
flypigExTechOp, Xperia 10 III?09:03
fridlmueflypig: not that I expected anything else... ;-)09:03
flypigfridlmue, of course :)09:03
pherjungTopic is created :
flypigExTechOp, technically you already can.09:04
flypigpherjung, many thanks!09:04
pherjungMy English isn't so good, so if somebody can review it to avoid misunderstandings, could be nice :)09:04
flypig#info pherjung created a topic for discussion of the Telegram-IRC bridge update09:05
flypigpherjung, looks excellent to me. Thank you.09:05
pherjungyou're welcome!09:06
fridlmueflypig: haven't we seen some 4.4 previews already running on the 10th year celebration in berlin? It looked relatively mature already. So my hope is a very well tested an solid release!09:06
flypigYes, I think you're right fridlmue.09:06
pherjungAbout the 4.4 update, why Jolla couldn't be a little more transparent? Perhaps Community can help with resolving som blocking issues :)09:07
piggzone feature missing from the gitlab -> github transition is the lack of the "activity" view which gave a handy overview of what was being worked on09:08
piggzwas great for spying09:08
pherjunglike this ?09:09
piggzno, project wide, across all repos09:09
pherjungoh, much easier actually!09:09
flypigpherjung, we do try to be transparent, and we're always getting useful input from the community, it just maybe isn't always flagged as being release-related.09:10
flypigI'm sure there was a discussion about github visibility on the forum too, but I forget where exactly.09:11
attahThis is from there:
piggzattah: looks like a lot of ofono activity :D09:13
flypigHow would you describe that link for the minutes attah?09:13
attahPretty good, but closed PRs are not there of course... so maybe the query could be improved09:13
attahList of open PRs to all sailfishos (organization) projects09:13
flypigPerfect; thanks!09:14
flypig#info List of open PRs to all sailfishos (organization) projects09:14
piggzi guess this is the list of stuff that recently got merged
attahSo titles of features, and repos touched can be seen easily09:14
attahpiggz: yes, good job09:14
fridlmueNow the same for mer-hybris and we are on track. :-)09:14
flypig#info List of PRs that recently got merged09:15
flypigWe're bumping up against time I'm afraid. Any final comments?09:15
pherjungOh, on the forum there is now a tracked tag. Some bug report don't have this tag, does it mean that Jolla didn't see it? Should the community ping Jolla's dev? Or just wait?09:15
flypigPinging doesn't hurt I think.09:16
flypigAs long as you don't go crazy.09:17
flypigAlright, we have to wrap up I'm afraid. Thanks for he great discussion today.09:17
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:17
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022)"09:17
flypigProposing Thursday 3rd March at 08:00am UTC09:17
flypigAny objections to the 3rd?09:17
flypigOkay, no objections raised :)09:18
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd March 2022 at 08:00am UTC:  2022-03-03T0800Z09:19
flypigThanks again all!09:19
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Feb 17 09:19:11 2022 UTC.09:19
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 17th February 2022 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:19
ExTechOpThanks everyone!09:19
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd March 2022 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:21
flypigYeah, thank you. And please think up some nice questions for the next meeting :)09:21
NicoOh, today was meeting day, dammit :D10:30
Nekron[m]I missed it, too... 🐼10:35
NicoI should have suggested at some point to do the meetings after the lunch break in finland. Then I might be paying attention! :D10:43
Solrac[m]Its over? D:18:42
NicoYeah, meetings are about 10 hours earlier ;p18:43

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