Thursday, 2022-05-12

pherjungGood morning!06:58
ExTechOpGood morning, everyone!06:58
ThaodanGood Morning06:59
flypigGood morning!07:00
flypigWe should get started :)07:00
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flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 202207:01
sailbotMeeting started Thu May 12 07:01:10 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:01
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"07:01
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:01
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and your elders.07:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"07:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:02
pherjung#info pherjung, community07:02
dcaliste_#info Damien Caliste, community07:02
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva - privateer07:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ jolla07:03
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla07:03
jwalden#info JP Walden - Sailor @ Jolla07:04
lbt#info David Greaves - Sailor and OBS guy07:04
flypigIt's great to see everyone today. If anyone else would like to reveal themselves, now is the time!07:07
flypigOkay, that must be everyone. What is that? 3:4 community:sailors?07:08
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeälinen - Sailor @ Jolla07:09
ThaodanSome might lurk from Telegram07:09
flypigIndeed :)07:09
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen - Sailor @ Jolla07:09
flypigWe only had one main question and piggz said he may arrive a little late, so we will start with the bug roundup.07:09
Thaodantelegram shows at least 4 lurkers07:09
flypig#topic Bug roundup (15 mins -- asked by pherjung)07:09
*** sailbot changes topic to "Bug roundup (15 mins -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"07:09
flypig#info The Community Bug Coordination team have continued their careful and thorough herding of bugs.07:10
flypig#info Thank you for the list of bugs to review. We've been through them carefully; I'll list the outcomes for each of them and then we can discuus any issues.07:10
piggzflypig: im here right no ... school run in 20 mins07:10
flypigThere's quite a few, so please bear with me.07:10
flypig#info The following have been tagged as "fixed".07:10
flypig#info The following has had a fix applied for the next release.07:11
flypig#info The following are now tagged as "tracked" and have PRs proposed to fix them.07:11
flypig#info The following already had an internal report and is now tagged as "tracked"07:11
flypig#info The following have new internal bug reports and have been tagged as "tracked"07:11
flypig#info I've left this one as it is so I can look at the logs in more detail.07:12
flypigThat's all of them. Once again, thanks to the bug team for all your hard work. It was particularly nice to see the reports which already had suggestions for fixes.07:12
flypigAny comments about either these bugs, or the process? Do things seem to be working okay?07:12
pherjungYou pasted the same link twice07:12
flypigOh, sorry. Which one. One second.07:12
pherjung3rd last one07:13
flypig#info The following also has a new internal bug report and has been tagged as "tracked"07:13
flypigIt should have been that one. Apologies.07:13
sledgesyou can use #undo next time ;)07:14
pherjungThis one hasn't been reviewed:
flypigpherjung, that's right. I need to go through the log for that one in more detail.07:14
pherjungisn't the tag pending appropriate? Or a little to early to add it?07:15
flypigYes, probably pending sounds appropriate in this case then. I've tagged it as pending.07:16
* pherjung is now an happy bug coordinator :)07:18
flypigGreat! That's very gratifying to hear :)07:18
flypigDoes anything need changing with the process right now? We should continue refining it of course.07:19
pherjungAs we discussed privately, there are a lot of bug reports. A lot are from SailfishOS 3 and I first thought it could be a good idea to track them. Finally, it's better to stay focus on the current list.07:20
flypigOkay good. I will add that to the minutes.07:21
pherjungOnce it's over, I think it could be helpfull to ask all users to verify if their bug are still real07:21
flypig#info <pherjung> there are a lot of bug reports. A lot are from SailfishOS 3 and I first thought it could be a good idea to track them. Finally, it's better to stay focus on the current list.07:21
pherjungAre you fine with this process?07:21
flypig#info <pherjung> Once it's over, I think it could be helpfull to ask all users to verify if their bug are still real07:21
flypigIt seems like you and the team are having to do a lot of effort in the background pherjung, but it seems to be producing results. So I'm happy with the process as long as you are.07:22
flypigWe do have a couple more minutes, but if that covers things, I'd suggest we move on to the next question.07:24
pherjungIt's fine for me, we can move to the next question07:24
flypig#topic Community OBS status after May 2022 (10 min -- asked by rinigus)07:24
*** sailbot changes topic to "Community OBS status after May 2022 (10 min -- asked by rinigus) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"07:24
flypig#info <rinigus> We are getting close to the anniversary of the announcement regarding community OBS.07:24
flypig#info <rinigus> As the commitment by Jolla was made for a year, it would be great to hear what are the plans regarding OBS.07:24
flypigI think rinigus isn't able to make it, but thank you for the question.07:25
flypigI have to be honest, I tried really hard to get a firm answer to your question, but it seems that the decision has yet to be made.07:25
flypigSo, this is the best I can do:07:25
piggzok, ill be gone in a few minutes ... school run ..... can we have commitment to keeping OBS, i think we have proved its usefulness with a new store and ports.....07:25
flypig#info <Jolla> We've been following usage of OBS carefully and are impressed with how well it's been made use of by the community.07:25
flypig#info <Jolla> While it clearly provides benefits, OBS is still a significant resource drain and we are still therefore considering how to support it longer term.07:25
flypig#info <Jolla> Although we're coming to the end of the 12 month period, we're still exploring options, and therefore it won't be taken out of service imminently.07:25
flypig#info <Jolla> As soon as the situation is clearer a concrete announcement will be made.07:26
flypigpiggz, sorry that time is tight for you, I thought it would be the other way around (that you'd arrive later!).07:26
flypiglbt is here, so maybe can shed more light on things.07:26
flypigI'd also suggest that we can push back the same question to the next meeting, if you like piggz?07:27
lbtnot really - it's not been something we've been thinking about recently07:27
lbtthere is certainly no push to get the OBS shutdown that I'm aware of07:28
lbtPersonally I'd take this as "no news is good news"07:28
dcaliste_about bug 11033, I've commented on the forum about the possible cause for the bug according to the available logs (previous topic, sorry).07:28
flypigThanks for that dcaliste_, very helpful and appreciated.07:30
flypigSimilarly, lbt, I think that's a helpful addition, thanks.07:30
flypigIs there anything further to add here? Does anyone want anything added to the minutes?07:34
flypigOkay, well we hit our allotted 10 minutes on the topic, so let's go to general discussion.07:35
pherjungI'm not aware how OBS works, but isn't a possibility to share the server with another community?07:35
flypigNo, don't apologise pherjung. Perhaps lbt could comment on that?07:36
lbtWe use a specific version of the OBS that has modifications for building ARM using scratchbox2 so that makes it quite specialised07:37
ThaodanYou would basicly need to setup your own obs with those patches plus distributing jolla packages07:37
lbtThat's the main reason that the Suse OBS won't work for us - and that's where many other projects end up (and where we started many years ago)07:38
flypigSo, you think it's unlikely to be viable to share it like this lbt, Thaodan?07:38
ThaodanIt also not that easy to maintain for a single person.07:39
ThaodanIt does a lot more than a simple ci server because it manages repos and the building.07:39
lbtyes, there's a whole set of infrastructure behind it07:40
ThaodanI think the best thing is to show uses for it that show value for things like harbour, things that reduce time spend in other areas.07:42
flypigAt the moment the link between "chum -> harbour benefit" isn't very clear. It would be good if this could be demonstrated somehow.07:43
flypigWe're now quite over time though. We're not in a huge rush, but we can of course continue in General discussion anyway.07:44
flypig#topic General discussion (20 min)07:44
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"07:44
lbtI think it would be interesting to see what the community thinks about the OBS - what value it provides.07:45
lbtThings like applications but also collaborative work, libraries etc07:46
flypigYes, I'd totally agree with that. It would be good if that was enunciated somewhere.07:46
ThaodanI think the value is well known to those that are active in the community but it would be more helpful to also see this benefit outside07:47
lbtI don't see much pressure to "do something" from Jolla's side at the moment - maybe the community could take a month or two to get a handle on this - after all the 12 month experience goes both ways07:47
lbtThaodan: yes, and as flypig says, to express this somehow07:48
flypigPractically speaking, is there anything to be done right now that could help with this?07:49
lbtWhat would a new user  get out of using the OBS etc etc07:49
Thaodanflypig: I'd say cleaner and better packaging helps us as jolla sailors because community has less issues in the long run07:50
Thaodanorganizing around obs help community with that collaborative work on packages.07:51
dcaliste_rinigus explained it well last year when it was discussed to shut down the OBS.07:52
flypigWas that on the forum dcaliste_? Do you have a link by any chance?07:52
dcaliste_He discussed also the pro and con of other "building" services.07:52
dcaliste_flypig, let me look for it in the forum...07:52
flypigThank you!07:53
flypigCould some more detail about the uses, benefits and results from OBS be added to the documentation?07:53
Thaodanflypig: I'd think so. App devs could be encoured to use the obs. E.g. for testing or test releases.07:54
flypigAt the moment, reading those docs as a first-time SFOS developer, I might not get a full idea about what OBS is used for.07:54
pherjungthis one ?07:54
dcaliste_flypig, rereading may be of interest.07:54
dcaliste_Ah pherjung you were quicker than I was ;)07:55
flypig#info For info about the benefits and uses of OBS, the earlier discussion on the forum covers useful ground.07:56
pherjungThis one is interesting too
flypigOkay, we're hitting time. let me just mention, in case anyone missed it, there was a hint at a future announcement yesterday.07:58
flypigWould anyone like to make any final comments, or have anything added to the minutes?07:59
pherjungIs it possible that VoLTE come together?08:00
piggzlbt: flypig:Thaodan back ... have we not demonstrated OBS benefits already?  we put a lot of effort into it a year ago, and its tiring to go over the same cycle08:01
lbtI think it's more to consolidate and confirm now that the OBS (and specifically Chum) has actually been in use for some time08:02
flypigpherjung, I can't give an answer to that I'm afraid.08:02
lbtThere were a lot of "it should do this"....08:02
lbtnow the community can say "it DOES do this..."08:02
lbtso I see it more of an affirmation of the OBS which should be able to confirm it's value and that should help cement it in place08:03
abrand maybe a little "and now it could do THIS"08:03
lbtyes - that would be good too - there is actually a lot more potential there08:04
lbtAfter all we're able to develop an entire OS because the OBS helps so much ;)08:04
dcaliste_Some stat on number of packages, link between packages (since chum is used to host libraries contrary to harbour), update rate of packages... woulkd be great.08:05
dcaliste_It would show the importance of chum in my opinion.08:05
abryeah it's definitely shown realized potential instead of just wishes08:06
pherjungSailfishOS community isn't that big, that's perhaps why we don't see the huge benefit08:06
dcaliste_That being said, I can't understand neither why a builder in a FOSS environment is not de facto a usefull thing.08:06
piggznumber of packages is >210 ... get updates to process most days08:07
lbtdcaliste_: there is the counter argument that the SDK provides the builder functionality08:08
lbtso the OBS is more of a community builder than "the only builder"08:08
dcaliste_Yeh, builder is a confusing term, I mean a builder with dependency handling and online.08:08
piggzsdk sucks for managing things professionally, eg for managing ports ... and obs does all the distribution ....08:09
piggzperhaps lbt can provide package download stats?08:09
ThaodanThe SDK is nice for development but maintaining things is much harder.08:09
ThaodanOBS together with webhooks make packaging so much easier.08:09
dcaliste_As rinigus mentioned, building *and distributing* a full stack (at leqst 3-4 libs + app) is not that convenient in SDK.08:10
piggzhow about jolla reture their internal obs and use the sdk instead .... does that make sense? :D08:10
dcaliste_For instance, I'm happy with the SDK for my own purpose when touching the calendar stack, but if I would need to distribute my chances, that would be a nightmare. I'm happy that Jolla is building all the stack themselves on ... an (internal) OBS.08:12
lbtI think these comments are all fodder for confirming the value of the OBS.08:14
abrare there many packages in chum that are also already on the jolla store?08:14
ThaodanIt is the same  for other things like telepathy development08:15
lbtThe point is more that these benefits have now actually been realised and are not just theoretical08:15
abrbecause there's something affirming about seeing the route from source to package to store08:15
Thaodanabr:  I think many are. Communi-IRC is now one (since yesterday)08:15
lbtso  the community can look at this and say after 12 months we've done X,Y,Z and benefit from A,B,C ...08:16
flypiglbt, the comments are valuable to be sure, but this is a transient discussion. It might be helpful to have something more concret.08:16
lbtflypig: right - and that's what I was suggesting earlier... tha the community take some time over the next few weeks to solidify these ideas08:16
flypigWe're going to have to wrap this up. Are there any practical steps or actions to be noted?08:17
lbtessentially to now put the case to Jolla "here's what we did with the OBS over the last 12 months ... now... can we keep it?"08:17
lbtThat sounds like a good forum topic :D :D08:17
flypigSo, for the minutes?: 'We encourage the community  to now put the case to Jolla "here's what we did with the OBS over the last 12 months ... now... can we keep it?"'08:18
flypig#info 'We encourage the community to now put the case to Jolla "here's what we did with the OBS over the last 12 months ... now... can we keep it?"08:19
piggzlbt: can you provide download stats for chum and other areas of OBS like nemo:hw:*:* ?08:19
lbtummm ... not easily08:20
flypiglbt, not easily because they don't exist, or because it's private info?08:20
lbtthey don't exist08:21
piggzwebserver logs + some python :P08:21
lbtyes, but there are a few ways to pull data from the OBS - API, https download, internal dependency pulls08:21
piggzah rats, i forgot my foilauth password08:22
lbtjust external https should be doable08:22
flypiglbt, would you be willing to look into it for the next meeting?08:22
flypigGreat, thank you.08:22
flypig#action lbt to look into publishing any potentially useful OBS/chum stats.08:23
flypigAlright. I'm sorry to cut the really nice discussion short, but we've spent some time on this now, and hopefully it's been useful.08:23
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:23
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th May 2022)"08:23
piggzi can write down some chum stats, and maybe get a list of ports on obs08:23
flypigCould you share those also at the next meeting piggz?08:24
flypigGreat, thank you.08:24
flypig#action piggz to share chum stats at the next meeting.08:24
flypigFor the next meeting:08:24
flypigProposing Thursday 26th May at 07:00am UTC08:24
flypigAny objections?08:25
ExTechOpOn vacation then, but I'll be on the next one.08:25
ExTechOpA side note, yesterday I got a single-ring phone call from +2420594xxxxx (+242 Republic of the Congo) and apparently they were expecting me to call back
flypigWe will miss you ExTechOp, but have a great vacation :)08:26
dcaliste_ExTechOp, yeh that's common scam indeed.08:26
dcaliste_flypig no objection on planed date.08:26
flypigThanks for the warning ExTechOp. It's very easy to fall into those traps.08:26
flypigAlright, the date is set.08:27
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 26th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC:  2022-05-26T0700Z08:27
flypigThanks all for the useful and detailed discussions this week. We'll no doubt return to the topic of OBS in the future.08:27
sailbotMeeting ended Thu May 12 08:27:49 2022 UTC.08:27
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 12th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:27
dcaliste_Thank you for the discussion and flypig chairing the meeting. Bye.08:28
piggzphew remembered password :D08:30
flypigA happy ending :)08:30
piggzflypig: i didnt mention it earlier, but you didnt talk about my lipstick bug :D08:31
Crabsterthx @ #?08:31
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 26th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:31
flypigpiggz, your lipstick bug?08:31
flypigAh, did you mention that? I'm afraid I missed it.08:33
piggzthink of it as in interesting one to track internally08:33
piggzi dont really expect it to be tracked with normal bugs :D08:33
flypigWell, I can certainly create an internal bug about it. If I understand correctly, this won't prevent SF running on the PP, but it will prevent it running with the latest Mesa driver on the PP?08:34
piggzyes ... but also, the pinephone-pro has many improvemnets in mesa 22, so, its desirable....08:35
piggzas it turns out, mesa reverted the deprecation of wl_drm in mesa 22.1, due to not all compositors switching to dmabuf08:35
piggzhowever, ive tried it this morning and its not working, might need to play some more08:36
flypigI've added this all to an internal issue. Thanks for flagging it up. I can't say what might happen from here though I'm afraid.08:40
flypigHave to wait and see.08:40
piggzsure, i think its something you need to be aware of08:42
flypigYes indeed. Appreciate it.08:43
piggznot that sticking to older version of software is an issue fot you :D :D08:45
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