Thursday, 2022-05-26

*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot06:41
flypigGood morning.07:00
attah Good morning!07:00
fridlGood Morning07:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 202207:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu May 26 07:00:29 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:00
piggzmorning, youve got me for 30 mins or so :)07:00
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and no thinking in the hallways.07:00
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:00
flypigIt's great we have you for a big piggz, and great to have everyone else here too!07:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ jolla07:01
nephros#info nephros, - Community bilge rat externimator07:01
gogeta_Fabio Isgrò aka @dr_gogeta86 - enthusiast07:01
piggz#info piggz community porter/dev07:01
lbt#info David Greaves - sailor and infra guy07:01
fridl#info fridlmue - community07:02
attah#info attah - community, killer of trees07:02
flypigSome impressive titles today :)07:02
flypiggogeta_, would you mind giving your details again, but prefix with #info so they're recorded in the minutes please?07:03
flypigUnless you specifically prefer them not to be recorded there.07:03
gogeta_#info Fabio Isgrò aka @dr_gogeta86 - enthusiast07:04
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla07:04
pherjung#info pherjung, community07:04
flypigPerfect, thank you gogeta_.07:04
gogeta_flypig, usualy I can't get in this meetings anymore :-D ... since ages07:04
flypigIt's good to have you here then gogeta_!07:05
flypigWe have a full house today; great :) But we also have a lot to get through, so we should get started with the topics.07:05
flypig#topic Bug roundup (10 minutes -- asked by pherjung)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Bug roundup (10 minutes -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:05
flypig#info <pherjung> A summary of the amazing bug-herding work of the Community Bug Coordination team over the last fortnight.07:05
flypig#info <Jolla> With thanks again to the amazing work of the Community Bug Coordination Team. These have been tagged as "tracked" (some just missing the tag; most have new internal bug reports):07:06
flypig#info <Jolla> These have been tagged as "fixed":07:06
flypig#info <Jolla> The team are also creating a page in the official docs to detail the process. Through the team's work there are seven bugs now marked as fixed and a further nine internal bug reports lodged.07:07
flypig#info <Jolla> Great work and thank you again.07:07
piggzthat amazing work07:07
flypigAgreed, a really good job again.07:07
fridlYeah, it is very good to see the Forums Bug category get some love. Thanks to the Teams on both side!07:08
flypigWould you like to add anything nephros?07:09
flypigOtherwise, I think we can move on.07:09
nephrosnot at the moment, feel free to move on.07:09
flypigOkay, great. Let's move on, and look forward to more bug handling next week.07:09
flypig#topic OBS statistics (10 minutes -- asked by flypig)07:10
*** sailbot changes topic to "OBS statistics (10 minutes -- asked by flypig) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:10
flypig#info <flypig> We had a couple of actions from the last meeting. lbt and piggz offered to collect Community OBS stats and share them here.07:10
flypigHere's the prepared answer. Maybe you could add something after lbt.07:10
flypig(in case I got something wrong)07:10
flypig#info <Jolla> Since lbt had a busy fortnight he wasn't able to collect anything yet, but we did get some solid details from piggz, olf and nephros:-07:10
flypig#info <Jolla> Chum contains 216 packages build for 10 releases over 3 architectures.07:10
flypig#info <Jolla> The aarch64 repository contains 622 unique packages.07:10
flypig#info <Jolla> 62 github repos have been created for abandoned apps and linux tools.07:11
flypig#info <Jolla> The nemo:devl:hw project contains 102 device ports (of varying degrees of activity).07:11
flypig#info <Jolla> Chum is used for several "critical" Sailfish packages, such as Storeman.07:11
flypig#info <Jolla> There's much more detail on olf's nice summary.07:11
flypigThat's the prepared answer, but we have several interested parties here, so feel free to elaborate.07:11
piggzstats have increased to 222 packages since that was written07:12
flypigThat's unhelpful ;)07:12
flypig#info <piggz> stats have increased to 222 packages since that was written07:12
lbt(I just wanted to apologise for not getting to look at the logs - I simply have not had time recently)07:12
piggzso, the question still is, what is the futue of OBS :)07:12
ThaodanI think no answers are good answers.07:13
lbthaha - very true Thaodan07:13
fridlJust wrt OBS: Thanks for getting targets there relatively fast!07:14
ThaodanI've gotten repositories for my sony-kumano and sony-edo ports. Those will go to the obs in a day or too. I was busy documenting everything and getting a working changelog generator.07:14
flypigWill that be the extra 2 ports that olf mentions in his post Thaodan?07:14
piggz im busy creating qx1050 and volla22 repos07:15
piggzso no, theyre 2 more07:15
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva late for the party with apologies:)07:15
flypigGreetings sledges, nice to have you here :)07:15
Thaodanflypig: That could be. I will also add Sagami (Xperia 1 III) ports however that will take some time as it is based on A12.07:16
flypigIt sounds like a flow of ports going in.07:16
ThaodanIf anyone is interested in porting highend Sony's feel free to join mme.07:16
attahThat's very cool :)07:16
gogeta_@Thaodan ... here in italy is pretty tough aquire one ... even on second hand market ... and for job related ... i need appsupport®07:17
piggzre no news is good news, if there wasa statement that said "we have no plans to decomission obs", then it might be better than the current status of, "it could go at any time after may 2022" ;)07:17
Thaodangogeta_: Well the ports are almost 95% close to jolla ports, if AAS for ports will arrive you can just install it.07:18
piggzThaodan: side topic, would you like to try the new way of porting, using halium? only 2 device packages needed ;)07:18
flypigpiggz, it's understandable that the uncertainty is unhelpful. Can I add your point to the minutes?07:19
piggzflypig: sure07:19
piggzanything to move forward a little07:19
flypig#info <piggz> re no news is good news, if there wasa statement that said "we have no plans to decomission obs", then it might be better than the current status of, "it could go at any time after may 2022" ;)07:19
Thaodanpiggz: maybe, I've been busy fixing kernel bugs on edo thou.. If any one as xp with cnns2, mhi or pci feel free to ping me.07:19
piggzflypig: is all the info/data on OBS being fed back to "the decision makers" ?07:21
flypigpiggz, there are always discussions happening, and we'll do our best to bring these stats into the discussion.07:22
flypigAlright, thanks for the nice stats, and also especially all the work that goes into what's behind those stats. We hit time, so if there are no objections, we should move to the next topic.07:23
ThaodanTo me flypigs anwer sounds like a yes.07:23
ThaodanIs there any point that we should go into specific detail?07:24
nephrosIn case the decision is made to decommission OBS, would it be feasible for the community to host an OBS instance somewhere? Or are there Jolla-specific customizations to the platform?07:24
ThaodanE.g. I think olfs post had some good points.07:24
piggzi think there are jolla customisations07:24
piggzThaodan: id like to second that, olf's way of articulating it was nice to read07:25
flypig5 more mins on this while the discussion is ongoing.07:25
lbtyes, there are cusomisations07:25
ThaodanHe is good with that, he was working in one of the Germany communities with me.07:25
piggzim going afk for 30 mins v shortly, so hopefully ill catch some of rinigus topic07:26
nephroslbt: things that *might* be shared with or replicated in such a community OBS project?07:26
nephrostechnically I mean, not asking for commitment here.07:27
piggzchange of plan, not going afk now :)07:27
lbtnephros: at the minute that's not possible. It's worth revisiting if the OBS is shutdown but it's a complex issue07:28
nephrosI see, thank you.07:28
lbtI'd spend more time if I felt there was a higher risk of it being needed07:29
flypig1 more minute on this for any final comments. Does anyone what anything added to the minutes?07:29
nephrosnot here.07:30
piggzlbt: i'll tke that as a +ve07:30
flypigOkay, time to move on to the next topic then :)07:30
flypig#topic Open sourcing VoLTE implementation (10 minutes -- asked by rinigus)07:30
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open sourcing VoLTE implementation (10 minutes -- asked by rinigus) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:30
flypig#info <rinigus> VoLTE support packages - modem_auto_config and ofono-vendor-qti-radio-plugin - have proprietary license.07:30
flypig#info <rinigus> Does Jolla plan to release the code? If you do, please be specific with the time frame, as we have heard about many plans for open sourcing, but none of them worked out.07:30
flypig#info <rinigus> So, without specific time frame, you may as well reply as "no, we don't have any plans and would keep it closed source".07:30
flypigI'm afraid we have a very long prepared reply on this. Apologies in advance.07:31
flypig#info <Jolla> As I hope we've been clear about, the VoLTE packages are beta and so still being worked on.07:31
flypig#info <Jolla> There are questions remaining about whether we'll be able to open source the entire stack; the question depends in part on where the boundary between device-specific and generic functionality lies.07:31
flypig#info <Jolla> This is an architectural question, but because the implementation is still in flux, it's not one we can answer today, nor can we put a timeframe on it.07:31
flypig#info <Jolla> We'll go into a bit more detail, because there are different community members with different needs interested in this.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> The VoLTE stack is made up of multiple components. This is the current status of these components, starting from the levels closest to the metal and moving upwards towards the UI.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 1. Hardware adaptation: Sony proprietary, we don't know of any plans for it to be made open source.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 2. modem_auto_config: currently closed source, Jolla proprietary.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 3. ofono-vendor-qti-radio-plugin: currently closed source, Jolla proprietary.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 4. ofono-modem-switcher: currently closed source, Jolla proprietary, Xpeia 10 II only.07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 5. libgbinder-radio: open source07:32
flypig#info <Jolla> 6. ofono-binder-plugin: open source07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> 7. ofono: open source07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> 8. libqofono: open source07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> Currently 2, 3 and 4 are closed source. These are the pieces that are likely to be device-specific, or have elements that are device-specific. These will be released in binary form to the hw:common repositories for use by porters.07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> Whether these will be made open source is not yet known. Because of the early stage things are at, it still depends on many factors.07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> It's worth reiterating that different devices are likely to require different implementations of some of these components.07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> Finally, slava has made available an ofono-binder-plugin-ext-sample, aimed at helping developers create ofono-binder-plugin extensions for different hardware.07:33
flypig#info <Jolla> However we very strongly urge porters to be patient and await the release of 2, 3 and 4 to hw:common before developing any alternative implementations.07:34
flypig#info <Jolla> The timescale for the release of 2, 3 and 4 to hw:common will be after the release of VoLTE for the Xperia 10 II.07:34
flypig#info <Jolla> All of this is subject to change.07:34
ThaodanIt is good no apologies needed.07:34
flypigThat's the prepared answer. Thanks Thaodan :)07:34
ThaodanPoint 1 is Qti proprietary, there's only one blob there that is sony specific the modem switcher07:35
ThaodanBut that is only is used for pre 2021 devices like Xperia 10 II and Xperia 107:35
attahOne thing that irks the logical side of me a bit is "they are somewhat specific, and therefore opening is less useful"... wouldn't that mean they gain more from being open, since just the binaries might not do?07:36
attahOr am i getting that wrong?07:37
flypigattah, that wasn't really the intended logic. It's more about them being in flux, and separately that the decision hasn't been made.07:37
piggzI guess its 2 and 3 that are most benefit to being open sourced? ..... is there not a benefit to being open-source-first? are they closed to leverage some advantage or just becuase you feel they are not ready yet?07:37
attahTrying to sell a company might be helped by having some assets... (at least by conventional logic)07:39
attahNot convinced that is a good path, but none the less07:40
flypigpiggz, I can't answer any further about the reasons I'm afraid.07:44
flypigBecause I don't have more info than I've provided.07:44
ThaodanCorrection for point 4. ofono-modem-switcher is yet so far only used for the Xperia 10 II.07:46
flypigThanks for clarifying that Thaodan.07:46
Thaodan#info Correction for point 4. ofono-modem-switcher is yet so far only used for the Xperia 10 II.07:46
ThaodanAdded to the log.07:46
flypigYes, should be, thanks.07:46
flypigWe should wrap up on this topic in 2 mins. Any further points, or anything anyone wants added to the minutes?07:46
ThaodanPersonally as a dev I prefer open source first but for companies these things are not always clear at first, sometimes decisions are made that are hard to understand outside of the company.07:47
flypigOkay, let's move on to the next topic.07:49
flypig#topic The future (15 minutes -- asked by attah)07:49
*** sailbot changes topic to "The future (15 minutes -- asked by attah) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"07:49
flypig#info <attah> How is the ownership situation progressing?07:49
flypig#info <attah> I think i speak for the entire community when i say that i hope it gets a speedy resolution with stable and interested ownership.07:49
flypig#info <attah> Similarly; is there anything you can share on the "engineering effort" that started recently?07:49
flypigHere's our prepared answer.07:49
flypig#info <Jolla> So far the Rostelecom representatives have resigned from the Board of directors. In addition the share arrangement discussions are at an advanced stage, the solution may be found even with domestic forces.07:49
flypig#info <Jolla> We will provide more information as soon as we can.07:49
flypigMuch shorter :) Would you like to add anything attah?07:50
attahThat's very nice to hear!07:50
pherjungI have to go. See you later07:50
attahIt would be so sad if it didn't work out now that the market is finally starting to look like it might be ready for a better OS07:51
attahNo specific comment about the engineering? Could/would it benefit the community, or could we even help in some small way?07:52
flypigThanks for asking attah (and it was nice to hear your positive wishes too).07:52
gogeta_better OS ... but reliant on very bad hw ... VoLTE is an example ... and i dunno if VoWifi is supported07:52
attahI very much doubt Jolla wants to be contingent on Android-first hardware, but they do a pretty amazing job with what they have to work with07:53
flypigattah, I would say there are always ways the community can help: coding on the open source components, translations, bug herding, answering questions in the forum, reporting issues, documentation...07:54
flypigThere are already amazing contributions in all these areas.07:54
attahOf course :) i was thinking if the specific predicament would be helped by something more narrow - but i guess you couldn't say07:55
NicoDid you ever think about applying for EU funding or so? Since having a EU based OS should be in their interest?07:56
flypigattah, yeah, I can appreciate it would be good to have something specific, but my personal opinion is that doing more of the same is already helpful.07:56
flypigNico, were you thinking of any particular funding stream?07:58
NicoNo, I was just thinking that there should be one with how much the EU touts their digital market atm :D07:59
attah:) I'll keep on polishing SeaPrint... and maybe it is time for another project soon (let's maybe revisit sharing slightly at the end)07:59
NicoI know that there are lots of small funds to develop open-source projects, but I have never looked outside my bubble yet :D07:59
attahBleh, it's mostly posturing... thy can't even come up with rules to make digital ID accessible08:00
attahnlnet seems to be doing lots of project-oriented grants... open VoLTE could surely have been such a thing08:00
NicoYep, I was thinking along those lines08:01
Nico(Partially out of the open source interest of course ;p)08:01
flypigCould you elaborate on nlnet?08:01
attahBarely... it is a foundation, out of NL presumably, that funds open-source initiatives08:02
flypigDo you have a link?08:02
flypig#info attah [nlnet] is a foundation, out of NL presumably, that funds open-source initiatives08:03
piggz*cough* the volte part is closed though :D08:03
flypigWe have just 2 more mins on this topic. Anything to add to the minutes?08:03
gogeta_If this is general ... any plan to include pipewire ?08:04
NicoI think there are a few other funds like that, but I can't remember what they were atm08:04
attahI think i'm good08:04
flypiggogeta_, we're not quite on general yet, but very soon.08:04
flypigOkay, if you discover funds in the future, it's always good to mention them here. Let's go to the General topic now.08:05
flypig#topic General discussion (15 min)08:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"08:05
piggzflypig: revisiting volte quickly .... current binaries are 64bit ... would 32bit versions be available at some point for ports/older devices?08:05
nephrosgogeta_: Some discussion on pipewire here:
fridlAs Thaodan mentioned "Standalone" AAS for Ports. Is this still a topic under active consideration at Jolla?08:06
flypigAh, piggz, that's an interesting question. I don't know I'm afraid.08:06
attahHow big overlap between VoLTE capable and 32 bit do we have?08:07
piggzpro1 :)08:07
attahRe: PipeWire... i'd just be happy with PulseAudio 1508:07
fridlPulseAudio 15 would be great for Sony gear, indeed!08:08
NicoDoes the Xperia X not support VoLTE in theory?08:08
NicoI guess I never checked08:08
ThaodanDoes it has than in stock?08:09
flypigfridl, regarding AAS, I'd need to check about that. Feel free to submit a question for a future meeting.08:09
gogeta_Xperia X not in custom rom ...08:09
ThaodanThen I guess not.08:09
NicoWell, Sony has a list and that does not have the X08:09
NicoBut the XA2 and such08:09
fridlflypig: ok08:10
NicoAh, the X compact is listed as VoLTE capable here:
flypigNico, that link will go in the minute. Could you give it some context (a one line-description)08:10
attahI was also wondering if anyone had some ideas for how app should share temporary files with each other... (now that /tmp is instantiated for each app in SailJail if i understood correctly)08:11
NicoIt is a description of how to enable VoLTE on Android on specific sony devices with a list of what devices it applies to08:11
attahCould be that i'm going about that wrong and there is a better solution...08:11
ThaodanIt is also worth to check if maintaining compatibility with such an old kernel is an option.08:12
NicoI guess since my dad still uses the X compact and likely will for years, I need to figure out a solution for that :D08:12
flypig#info <Nico> [this link] is a description of how to enable VoLTE on Android on specific sony devices with a list of what devices it applies to08:12
flypigThanks Nico.08:12
NicoYou might want to add the second link, since that lists more devices, but it is also linked from the first one, I guess08:13
gogeta_the worst part ... operator keep a kind of white/blacklist08:13
* Nico shivers08:13
ThaodanSome do that.08:13
ThaodanEg. O2 Germany did that I think.08:13
flypigNico, the links are the same I think.08:14
ThaodanBut really old modem firmware and kernels are the biggest issue..08:14
flypigAh, no, sorry, my mistake.08:14
Nicoflypig, No, one is for an older android version, so it has a different list of devices08:14
nephrosattah: about sharing files: I am not one to fancy XDG stuff, but maybe there is use for ~/Public after all?08:15
flypig#info And similar info for older devices.08:15
NicoTy <308:15
NicoThaodan, I guess the X compact already is partially community port, maybe I should convert to a full one for newer firmware or stuff08:16
attahnephros: Maybe... but i kind of want/need the property of /tmp that i don't necessarily need to clean up after (because what end would be responsible?)08:16
NicoI still have a few of those devices after all with Sailfish :D08:16
ThaodanNico: That would help. Feel free to start that, I can help you.08:16
nephrosattah: alternatively, in patchmanager we use a general whitelist file in /etc/firejail for stuff in /tmp08:17
flypig3 more mins until we wrap up the topic.08:17
NicoWell, it probably won't happen in the next few months. Busy with mentoring GSoC and like 20 other projects :D08:17
NicoAnd afaik there was one community port for it before08:17
attahnephros: The reason i'm asking is for Harbour... otherwise i could just wing it08:18
flypig#info <nephros> [concerning sharing] in patchmanager we use a general whitelist file in /etc/firejail for stuff in /tmp08:18
attahor did i misunderstand?08:19
flypigDo you want 5 more mins? Anything to add to the minutes?08:19
nephroswell I doubt mangling things in /etc is going to fly with harbour...08:19
flypigAlright, time is up on the discussion.08:20
flypigThanks all for keeping it lively and clean :)08:20
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:21
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th May 2022)"08:21
flypigProposing Thursday 9th June at 07:00am UTC08:21
flypigAny objections or concerns with that?08:21
flypigSilence is good :) Okay, let's go with that date and time then.08:22
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th June 2022 at 07:00am UTC:  2022-06-09T0700Z08:22
flypigThanks all for the interesting discussion today!08:22
gogeta_thank you to all08:22
sailbotMeeting ended Thu May 26 08:23:02 2022 UTC.08:23
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 26th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:23
attahThank you for hosting!08:23
NicoThank you <308:23
nephrosbye all, see ya somewhere around! :)08:23
gogeta_seen this interest after almost 10 years ... is difficult ... despite the increasing linux alternatives ....08:23
Crabsterthx to #?08:24
gogeta_But i'm aving more and more difficulties to keep using only sailfishos phone latelly08:24
gogeta_I have a bug since last year with vodafoneIT08:24
gogeta_since they disabled 3g after a phone call my phone sticks to 2g ... and I need to reboot the device to regain 4g access08:25
gogeta_and 2g coverage is smaller and smaller ... newer BTS are 4g only08:25
flypiggogeta_, do you have a link to the bug on the forum?08:25
gogeta_talked even with monich ...08:26
gogeta_#isjustme bug08:26
flypigI see. That's difficult.08:26
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th June 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:26
attahDifferent phone could help, and VoLTE is of course a remedy08:27
*** rainemak_ is now known as rainemak08:33
*** nephros_ is now known as nephros10:03
Solrac[m]Tho I asked about it few meetings ago and the answer seemed to give a feeling of uncertainty; I cannot thank you guys enough for releasing a start to the whole VoLTE situation.14:45

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