Thursday, 2022-11-24

*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot07:25
ExTechOpHello everyone!07:59
Solrac[m]Good Morning07:59
ThaodanHei Hei08:00
flypigGood morning!08:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 202208:01
sailbotMeeting started Thu Nov 24 08:01:10 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:01
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:01
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and Rule of Acquisition 208.08:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:02
ExTechOp208: Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer.08:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla and meeting chair08:02
Solrac[m]#info Solrac, comunity08:02
flypigNo dangers here though, I'm sure :)08:03
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla08:03
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - sailor @ Jolla08:03
daneos#info daneos - community08:05
thilo[m]#info thigg, community08:05
flypigGreat to see everyone, and especially that the question-askers are here too!08:05
Nico#info Nico, community slacker08:05
flypigOkay, let's move on to the first question. Feel free to add your "brief introduction" later if you arrive late.08:06
flypig#topic Log persistence/easing gathering of logs (10 mins -- asked by thigg)08:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Log persistence/easing gathering of logs (10 mins -- asked by thigg) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:06
flypig#info <thigg> The journalctl Logs are rolled over quite quickly in Sailfish OS.08:07
flypig#info <thigg> It is likely that some bug reports are struggling to collect logs because when the person is back home and thinks about getting those logs, they are gone already.08:07
flypig#info <thigg> For example see
flypig#info <thigg> It might be helpful to collect logs for a longer period of time (e.g. one week)?08:07
flypig#info <thigg> They still might forget this, thus maybe we could add a userfriendly button somewhere to save the whole journal with a dedicated name?08:07
flypig#info <thigg> (Maybe even able to select a broad category, e.g. bugs with connection, in browser,...). That way the gathering of logs would take ~30 seconds for the user and it is way more likely they do it.08:07
flypigThanks for the nice question thilo[m], you raise some good points. Here's our prepared answer.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> Log collection unfortunately remains tricky for many reasons, not least the need to remove private data before sharing them. We have several help articles related to collecting logs.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> The first article provides a script that can be used to simplify the process of collecting logs.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> The second article provides a script which is a little more complicated to run and with a focus on audio/bluetooth, but which will also make your logs persistent.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> We really like your suggestion to add a user interface for this. We have an internal task for improving the process, but no timeline. We're always open to nice suggestions like this.08:09
flypigThat's the official answer, but as a personal addendum, would it make sense to consider adding this functionality to Bugger!?08:09
thilo[m]Would this be harbour compatible?08:10
flypigThat's a good question. Do you have to be root to collect the logs?08:10
ThaodanI don't think so08:10
ThaodanYou don't need to be root but talk to the log08:11
ViGeyes you do have to be root08:11
thilo[m]Jiurnalctl is empty otherwise08:11
Thaodaneither be in the logging group or get the permissions somewhere else using polkit08:11
ThaodanIt's not true that you need to be root if configured properly08:12
flypigThat doesn't sound very harbour-compatible unfortunately.08:12
ViGeThaodan: So you first need to be root in order to add yourself to the logging group. In my book that counts as "you have to be root".08:12
ThaodanCurrently logs are not permanent which is the biggest issue.08:12
ThaodanViGe: Sure but technically to get logs root is not needed, but if it is not a default of course you need root first.08:13
flypigWould it make sense to increase the log cycle time?08:13
flypigBy default, I mean.08:13
Solrac[m]Pardon my ignorance, would a password/pin/fingerprint request not suffice in a prompt for root?08:13
Solrac[m]If so, would be feasable for a "first time setup" when running the application for the first time?08:13
flypigGood question Solrac[m].08:14
thilo[m]A day or two of logs would be enough i think08:14
Thaodanflypig: logs are not saved on disks for release builds08:15
Thaodanthat's the issue.08:15
ThaodanSolrac[m] flypig[m]  if the app uses polkit yes08:15
Thaodanthere's no prompt for root really08:15
flypigThaodan, reboots is an issue in some cases, but from the original question it's also just about "not being able to collect logs until later".08:16
thilo[m]I think keeping it in memory determines the size08:17
thilo[m]Yeah reboots are not that important imo08:17
Thaodanflypig: Yes that's what I meant. We can change it to have like 50mb logs and then rotate, journald does that on it's own.08:17
flypigOkay, I misunderstood Thaodan's point, thanks for clarifying Thaodan. I take the point now.08:17
thilo[m]Either a quick gui way to collect logs and save them when you observe a bug while leaving the tram, or two days of logs i think would help08:18
ThaodanNoted, we already track this internally.08:19
thilo[m]Cool :)08:20
Thaodanmight make sense to adapt bugger if it does what we need.08:20
thilo[m]If there would be a way to get this into bugger (e.g. By jolla vendoring it) that would be nice08:20
flypigBugger is already proving itself useful. I see many bugs submitted using it now.08:21
flypig(the tag it adds at the end is a neat addition).08:21
flypigWe've hit time on this topic I'm afraid. Any final thoughts or additions for the minutes?08:22
ViGeBugger is not in Harbour so we don't really have to worry about Harbour rules there.08:22
thilo[m]It is not? That suprises me08:22
thilo[m]Hm okay08:22
thilo[m]In that case08:22
ThaodanThere's also the crash reporter which is similar but uses a backend server, it is not a  default as it isn't used outside of development.08:23
Thaodanfor automatic crash/diagnostic reports it is better.08:23
thilo[m]If someone could contribute a poc to bugger, i think that would help08:23
flypig#info <thilo[m]>: "If someone could contribute a poc to bugger, i think that would help"08:25
flypigWorth recording a call to action :)08:25
flypigWe should move on, is that okay thilo[m]?08:25
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flypigThere's opportunity to discuss further in General Discussion too.08:26
flypigThanks thilo[m], and thanks for raising an important topic.08:26
flypig#topic VoLTE for Ports (10 mins -- asked by LSolrac)08:26
*** sailbot changes topic to "VoLTE for Ports (10 mins -- asked by LSolrac) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:26
flypig#info <LSolrac> I vaguely remember someone mentioning VoLTE for unofficial ports in the forums. However, I have not been able to see any talk about it again.08:26
flypig#info <LSolrac> So I ask, is there a plan to implement a standard for porters to implement VoLTE in their devices?08:26
flypigHere's our prepared answer. It's a little long, so please bear with me.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> We discussed something similar back in May (see point 5) and it’s worth reviewing that answer.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> Back then we highlighted the eight layers of the Sailfish OS VoLTE stack:08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> 1. Hardware adaptation: Sony proprietary.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> 2. modem_auto_config: Jolla proprietary.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> 3. ofono-vendor-qti-radio-plugin: Jolla proprietary.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> 4. ofono-modem-switcher: Jolla proprietary, Xperia 10 II only.08:27
flypig#info <Jolla> 5. libgbinder-radio:
flypig#info <Jolla> 6. ofono-binder-plugin:
flypig#info <Jolla> 7. ofono:
flypig#info <Jolla> 8. libqofono:
flypig#info <Jolla> We said at the time we intended to release 2, 3 and 4 to the hw:common repositories for use by porters. We've not been able to do this yet.08:28
flypig#info <Jolla> It’s worth noting however that they're device-specific, so may not be useful for ports more generally.08:28
flypig#info <Jolla> In terms of a standard, slava has made available an example ofono binder plugin extension, which is a template for porters to replace layer 3.08:28
flypig#info <Jolla> The extension interfaces are defined in the following headers.08:29
flypig#info <Jolla> Hopefully this can be of help to porters looking at this.08:29
flypigThat's the answer, hopefully useful.08:29
flypigWould you like to add anything Solrac[m]?08:29
Solrac[m]My apologies for my delay, I had a network issue.08:30
flypigNo worries. Did you receive the answer?08:31
Solrac[m]Yes, thank you.08:32
flypigGreat. Does it answer your question?08:32
Thaodan2,3 and 4 should work on Sony ports  pretty much unmodified08:33
fridl#info fridlmue - community (sorry for being late)08:33
flypigGreat that you could join us fridl, no apology necessary.08:33
Solrac[m]Earlier this year, I was attempting to port to a Galaxy S9+, sadly this device does not allow for VoLTE unless stock, so I am not necesarrily a porter that could take advantage of this, however I do believe this could benefit other porters. If anything, and again pardon my ignorance, I think letting layers 2,3,4 read a configuration file (which I asusme might be similar to Slava's extension) to ease this for future builds might not08:34
Solrac[m]be a bad suggestion?08:34
Solrac[m]Either way, I believe this is good for my part. Thank you verily much for your answer. -- If anything I'd like to ask any other porter here to maybe add in? Or possibly in general discussion, considering time constraints08:35
ThaodanBesides modem switching pretty much anything else is specific to the vendor of the soc.08:35
flypigThanks Solrac[m] for your detailed answer. I agree, any input from you and other porters is useful here.08:36
flypigThe 10 mins is up. Should we move to the next, or are there more points to be made? Anything for the minutes?08:38
flypig#info <Solrac[m]>: "letting layers 2,3,4 read a configuration file (which I asusme might be similar to Slava's extension) to ease this for future builds might not be a bad suggestion?"08:39
flypig#info <Thaodan>: "Besides modem switching pretty much anything else is specific to the vendor of the soc"08:40
flypigI think that summarises the situation for the minutes. Let's move on then.08:40
flypig#topic Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by thigg)08:41
*** sailbot changes topic to "Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by thigg) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:41
ThaodanThere's no configuration really, the  qti plugins just build on exist hal.08:41
Thaodanbut yeah lets move on08:41
flypig#info Our regular Community Bug Coordination Team update, provided by thigg.08:42
flypig#info <Jolla> Thank you once again to the amazing work of the Community Bug Coordination Team. As a result of their work, we now have an additional:08:42
flypig#info <Jolla> 4 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked";08:42
flypig#info <Jolla> 1 bug report marked as "pending" more info;08:42
flypig#info <Jolla> 3 bug reports tagged as "fixed";08:42
flypig#info <Jolla> 3 duplicate/moved/closed for other reasons.08:42
flypig#info Thank you also to everyone who has reported issues. We've been pushing within Jolla to address as many of these reports as we can over the last month and your efforts have been invaluable.08:42
flypigWould you like to add anything thilo[m]?08:42
thilo[m]Only the invitation to the team ;)08:43
thilo[m]Help categorizing bug reports is appreciated :)08:43
flypigYou are looking for new bug hunters?08:44
flypigSorry, bug *herders*.08:44
flypigCan I add something about this invitation to the newsletter next week as well?08:44
thilo[m]That would be welcome08:45
thilo[m]If pherjung doesn't object, but that should be fine08:45
flypigGreat, I'll message you privately for the details. In the meantime, let me log this to the minutes too.08:45
thilo[m]Yes :)08:45
pherjunghi everybody!08:45
pherjungsorry I'm a bit late08:45
pherjungof course, I'm in. More people, more fun it will be :)08:45
flypig#info The Community Bug Coordination Team are inviting new members.08:46
flypig#info <thilo[m]> added: "Only the invitation to the team ;) Help categorizing bug reports is appreciated :)"08:46
flypigthilo[m], pherjung, it's great that you've arranged such good processes for distributing the effort.08:47
flypigIf there's no more to add right now, should we move on thilo[m], pherjung?08:48
thilo[m]I'm done08:48
pherjunglet's go ahead :D08:48
flypigThanks again!08:49
flypig#topic Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by jolla)08:49
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:49
flypig#info <jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?08:49
NicoNo, but I should really finish mine...08:49
flypigThere weren't any PRs submitted in advance either, but anyone else is also welcome to raise any.08:49
flypigCan you remind us which Nico?08:50
NicoI was working on some BluezQt stuff ages ago :D08:50
flypigOkay, but just to check: the ball is in your court right now, not ours?08:50
ThaodanSomeone should add some more kf5 packackages to chum.08:51
Nico(But then that computer with the code was in a different city for a few months)08:51
NicoI should really finish it, as I said :D08:51
ExTechOpBy the way, I think I have a case where the keyboard gets wonky: if you start typing in one language (eg. Finnish) and then switch keyboard languages (eg. English) you will likely trigger strange things happening with the keyboard (unexpected copy-paste locations, words getting inserted randomly etc).08:51
ExTechOpThis happens to me fairly often since I'm in chats with both Finnish and English language people.08:51
flypigNico, understood, but it's good that there's nothing blocking it from our side. Do finish it, of course :)08:52
NicoAgreed :308:52
flypigOkay, let's move on to General and we can discuss this bug ExTechOp :)08:53
flypig#topic General discussion (15 min)08:53
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"08:53
flypigExTechOp, what are you using to switch keyboards? Swipe, or press and hold on space bar, or something else?08:53
ExTechOpOops, I misread the previous subject as general instead of open pr :-D08:53
flypigExTechOp, no worries, it was time to move on anyway!08:54
ExTechOpMostly press and hold, then select, as I also have emoji as a "3rd language"08:54
dcalisteSorry, I arrived to late for the topic on logs. Maybe flypig or someone else could comment about this repo : it appeared last week but is still empty at the moment.08:54
pherjungflypig: back to first discussion, I found this topic
flypigdcaliste, interesting observation. I wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it just now. I've asked internally, and will try to report back.08:56
ThaodanI just tracked this bug internally, it has bugging me so long personally.08:57
flypigExTechOp, I also switch between English and Finnish often (+emoji) and haven't experienced this. But I usually swipe. I'll try press-and-hold instead for a bit and see if I can reproduce it too.08:57
flypig#info Concerning log capture, pherjung highlighted the following forum topic for discussing it:08:58
thilo[m]Thadoan: can you comment on the topic so it is visible? You could also add a tracked label i guess?08:59
flypigThanks for that pherjung. We should have more discussion there.08:59
ExTechOpflypig And obviously now that I'm trying to get it to manifest it doesn't happen. Also switching between Sailfish and Android apps (mainly Signal, Firefox) gets things happening.08:59
flypigthilo[m], I notice it's in the Feature Requests section, so no "tracked" tag unfortunately.09:00
thilo[m]Re: logtopic: Yeah, we should at least link the meeting logs, once they exist09:00
Thaodanflypig: Move to the bugs section?09:00
ThaodanIt's a bug in some regards09:00
flypigThaodan, that's fine for me; thilo[m], pherjung, would that work for you?09:01
thilo[m]It doesnt use the template :devil emoji:09:01
flypigIndeed :)09:01
thilo[m]Nah, its okay, we are not parsing the contents yet09:01
flypigExTechOp, if you figure out steps, would you create a bug report? I'll try and if I managed will do the same on the forum too.09:01
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thilo[m]It won't break the tooling, thats what i am saying, but you could also have a tracked label in the feature request section, i think that would satisfy people09:02
thilo[m](proper german, never finishes a sentence :D)09:03
flypigHaha :)09:03
ThaodanI noticed that the forum has a handy mailing list mode, which is handy if  you prefer email.09:03
ExTechOpflypig Indeed, but it of course manifests at the most inconvenient times when one doesn't have time to report.09:03
ThaodanI just doesn't work exactly as email reply is disabled.09:03
flypigIt would make sense though, to have the tags in the Feature Requests section too.09:03
thilo[m]Extechop: whats the problem? Figuring out how you produced it?09:04
flypigExTechOp, of course, I know what you mean :) That's a point in favour of Bugger! though :)09:04
thilo[m]Bugger wont help here i guess. I doubt that the real problem is the actual creation of the report on the forum09:05
flypigViGe, could we add the "tracked" tag to the Feature Requests section?09:05
ExTechOpthilo Indeed, there is something that I do that triggers copy/paste problems when moving stuff between apps, but I haven't been able to figure out what that is. It's very obvious when it happens, eg. paste location is different from where the cursor is etc.09:05
thilo[m]Although i am totally in favor of praising bugger all day ;)09:05
ViGeflypig: sure, why not09:05
pherjungIf we start to tag feature request, we can do the same like the bugs09:06
ViGeflypig: Should we add the whole "bug tracking" tag group there?09:06
thilo[m]Hmm what yould help you, extechop? Video recording? Information which apps where open?09:06
pherjungis providing 5 "new" features request each community meeting a good starting point?09:06
flypigViGe, I think adding them all would make sense.09:07
thilo[m]Pherjung: a buggy feature coordination team?09:07
ThaodanDepends on the size.09:07
Thaodansometimes one or two is enough.09:07
pherjungthilo[m]: yes09:07
ViGeflypig: done09:07
flypigThank you ViGe!09:07
flypigThaodan, are you okay to handle the tags for the Fritz Box VPN?09:08
flypig+ add a comment there.09:08
thilo[m]Hm i dont think quality control on feature requests is easy...09:08
thilo[m]But we can just link random requests in the meeting for sure09:09
pherjungI agree, but we can start and improve the processes with the time09:09
thilo[m]Or just link all the ones i like :P09:09
pherjungit will increase the amount of our team :D09:09
Thaodanflypig: done09:09
flypigthilo[m], you make a good point. It's generally non-controversial to add reproducible bugs to our internal tracker. Adding feature requests may be more tricky.09:09
flypigGreat, thank you Thaodan!09:10
pherjungyou only allowed to join us if you provide 5 correct bugs report, then feel free to provide your feature request haha09:10
thilo[m]Or bring candy09:10
flypigHaha :D09:10
pherjungthere are more German users, it's not fair :(09:10
Solrac[m]Are pumpkin spice chocolate chip cookies an acceptable offering?09:10
thilo[m]I totally do things in your favor if you bribe me properly09:11
Solrac[m]ps: Happy Thanks Giving from The Americas & Puerto Rico btw~09:11
pherjunganyway, I think it won't be a problem as the Bug coordination team just highlight the features requests09:11
thilo[m]Gluten free please09:11
pherjungJolla will have the last word09:11
thilo[m]Extechop: regarding my last comment: ideas?09:12
flypigI think that's it: some may not make it in immediately, but there's no reason not to consider them.09:13
flypigdcaliste: the repo you mentioned will eventually have slava's ofono logger moved to it. It's planned, but we don't have a timeline for when it will be completed yet:
ExTechOpthilo Sorry, as I said, I've been unable to pin it down.09:14
thilo[m]Yeah we can always discuss one or two here. Will be interesting at least09:14
dcalisteNice, thank you flypig.09:14
flypigCan I (or could someone else) add something to the minutes about the Feature Request plan, please?09:14
flypigdcaliste, you're welcome. This won't address the issue discussed earlier I think, but it's a good step forwards.09:15
thilo[m]We'll come up with a selection mechanism as well, maybe those with the most hearts09:16
thilo[m]Thats easy scriptable ;)09:16
dcalisteIndeed, it's good to get things less dispersed. Having it under sailfishos org in github will increase it's visibility.09:16
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flypig#info: The Community Bug Coordination Team will start to highlight feature requests as well as bugs. They will devise a suitable process for this.09:17
flypigI wasn't sure whether I needed to mention sweets...09:17
thilo[m]#info: all candy to improve the process and bribe the team is welcome09:18
flypigWe are quite a bit over time I'm afraid, so should start to wrap up. Is there anything else to add to the minutes?09:19
ThaodanLast meeting I've I forgot to talk about something.09:20
flypigDo you remember what it was?09:21
ThaodanI want to create a repo for common answers and questions. Do you we have a sailfish community org somewhere, would anyone want to contribute?09:21
ThaodanSomething like had-faq but possible to be quoted on irc and telegram.09:21
thilo[m]Thadoan: good idea09:22
thilo[m]similar to the debug information wiki on the forum09:22
flypigThaodan, there is
Thaodan is the bot I'm reffering to09:23
Thaodancan anyone here created repos there?09:23
flypig#info <Thaodan> "I want to create a repo for common answers and questions. Do you we have a sailfish community org somewhere, would anyone want to contribute?"09:25
Thaodananyway I will figure it out.09:26
flypigI think we'll have to leave this question hanging. It sounds like an excellent initiative Thaodan.09:26
flypigI'm going to move us along, but thanks for raising this, please tell us what you figure out at the next meeting :)09:26
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:27
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th November 2022)"09:27
flypigProposing Thursday 8th December at 08:00am UTC09:27
flypigAny objections? In the morning I think it's okay for sailors.09:28
ExTechOpWorks for me.09:28
flypigGreat! And for everyone else, silence is agreement here :)09:29
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 8th December 2022 at 08:00am UTC: 2022-12-08T0800Z09:29
flypigThat's it! Thank you for all the great discussion today as always!09:29
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Nov 24 09:29:33 2022 UTC.09:29
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 24th November 2022 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:29
ExTechOpThanks everyone!09:29
dcalisteThank you.09:30
Crabsterthx to #?09:31
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 8th December 2022 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:32
Solrac[m] Thanks for the meeting~09:33
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