Thursday, 2024-02-15

rainemakgood morning!07:42
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot07:56
tuplasuhveli[m]Good morning all!07:58
NicoGood afternoon! :D07:59
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 202408:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Feb 15 08:00:02 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.08:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:00
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today08:01
Nico#Nico, from Barcelona (but in Japan rn). SFOS user, but haven't been active in the community for quite a while08:01
dcalisteGood morning,08:02
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:02
Nico#info Nico (sorry)08:02
ViGe#info Ville Nummela, community08:02
tuplasuhveli[m]#info tuplasuhveli, community08:02
Crabster#info Crabster - lurker08:02
rainemakWe have two topics today and some discussion/feedback topics for the general discussion. So, we have good amount of time.08:03
rainemakLet's give a minute for intros. And as usual, it's perfectly fine to come a bit late as well.08:04
rainemakOk, let's go...08:05
rainemak#topic Ofono Updates  (10mins -- asked by piggz)08:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Ofono Updates (10mins -- asked by piggz) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:05
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar  - Sailor at Jolla08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> Sailfish uses the Ofono Telephony stack to communicate with modems.08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> The version of Ofono use in Sailfish is quite old, and diverged from08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> the upstream project quite a lot. This was possibly understandable08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> when the upstream looked stagnant, however it seems to have had08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> somewhat of a revival, and has pushed out several release lately.08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> Would it be worth re-basing the Sailfish Ofono and plugins on top of08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> upstream to reduce the divergence and future maintenance? I08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> understand some of the reluctance to use upstream has been around08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> the ell library, can you expand as to why this cant be used, it08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> doesnt seem like a very large lib to include. I have had PRs on08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> sailfish ofono to update it for quite some time, these were created08:05
rainemak#info <piggz> by painstakingly cherry-picking each upstream commit that would08:06
piggzmorning :)08:06
rainemak#info <piggz> apply against the sailfish version, but the longer the divergence08:06
rainemak#info <piggz> remains, the harder this gets. Upstream has improvements for the08:06
rainemak#info <piggz> quactel modem, many code cleanups and improvements, and maybe useful08:06
rainemak#info <piggz> for other porters.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Indeed, Ofono has started to be painful to maintain and we’ve talked08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> doing what’s described here. Just rebasing all our changes on top of08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> upstream, and possibly just starting to use the libell. However, no08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> idea yet on the schedule.08:06
piggzok, thats good to know at leaat08:06
piggzfsck ... least!08:06
piggzfor info, i have libell packaged and used in my ofono fork for the PP08:07
dcalisteFor reference, I think you have already some rebases done piggz:
dcalisteAre they still valid ?08:07
piggzthose are cherry-picks of commits that would apply ... if it was entired rebased they wouldnt be needed08:08
piggzif switched to libell, things would be much simpler to rebase08:08
piggzhere is libell
Thaodanwas it that libel was a replacement for glib info conman and ofono?08:09
rainemak#info <piggz> Here is libell
piggzsomething like that yes08:09
piggzthe devs i spoke to said the plan was to remove glib ... so rebasing would get even harder in the future08:09
Thaodansounds like a lot of nih08:11
rainemaktiming wise these kind of bigger changes are good to merge after major release (more precisely after branching in OBS)08:12
rainemakthere always tend to be corner cases that need to be fixed08:12
piggzrainemak: sure ... i imaging there would be quite a bit of work to do on the jolla side, re-writing all the plugins08:12
piggzThaodan: at may be nih ... but there may be more to it .. its quite a small lib, intended for small embedded systems iirc08:14
rainemakGood discussion but it's time to move on.08:15
dcalisteJust for ignorant, is ELL this thing : ?08:15
piggzits a kernel project08:15
rainemakI'll give a moment still08:15
Thaodanyeah it's the same thing08:16
dcalisteOk, thanks for the pointer.08:16
rainemak#topic Restore Sailfish Weather  (5mins -- asked by cquence)08:16
*** sailbot changes topic to "Restore Sailfish Weather (5mins -- asked by cquence) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:16
rainemak#info <cquence> Will the native Foreca Weather app be restored in the next08:16
rainemak#info <cquence> release? Also are there any possibilities to use the native app08:16
rainemak#info <cquence> with different configurable backends? User will have to provide08:16
rainemak#info <cquence> their own key/credentials for paid services.08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Foreca Weather app is not restored to the next release. Having means08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> to use different backends is something that we’re thinking as well.08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Community raised as plausible option and it would a good08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> candidate to check how feasible it’d really be.08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:16
Thaodanstrange from my pov where the man power at those projects is already quite low08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> If you haven’t yet disabled, you can disable Weather banner from08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Events view from Settings -> Events View -> Install Weather from08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Store.08:16
dcalisteDuring the time the weather component appeared on Github, I start modifying them to allow multiple providers.08:17
dcalisteI'm running with weatherAPI at the moment (whuch has bad forecast, but which is free).08:18
dcalisteIt would be nice if the components could be published (again).08:18
rainemakHaving possibility for different plugins would be neat08:21
rainemakdcaliste, hopefully soon.08:21
tuplasuhveli[m]If I'm not mistaken, GNOME Weather uses But it would be nice to give the user an option to choose between different providers08:21
dcalisteGreat !08:21
rainemakI guess this is pretty much covered08:22
Thaodanthere's a kde widget too that uses yr.no08:23
rainemakLet's move on.08:23
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)08:23
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?08:23
nephroshello, I'm late.08:26
nephrosI don't have a PR yet, but would it be acceptable to file one to package "poppler" private/unstable headers?08:26
dcalisteWhat would be the purpose ? (not objecting, just curious)08:27
nephrosI have a package queued for chum which needs them to build.08:28
dcalisteThanks, I'll read their policy.08:29
rainemakAs there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.08:30
nephrosModified package:
nephrosok thx.08:30
rainemak#topic General discussion (15 min)08:30
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> Few things from our side that we haven’t yet covered.08:31
rainemak#info <Jolla> The next release, 4.6.0 Sauna, was already featured in the FOSDEM08:31
rainemak#info <Jolla> 2024 on Linux on Mobile stand. You can easily see that the release #info <Jolla> is not far away. Before that we will have translation round and08:31
rainemak#info <Jolla> inform this separate in the Forum. Stay tuned.08:31
rainemakTarget would be to get translations synced during next week then have a time period of a week to contribute translation. Let's see how much winter vacation period affects.08:31
dcalisteThanks for these planning info, rainemak. Good to know.08:33
NicoLooking forward!08:33
tuplasuhveli[m]Ooh, that sounds intriguing!08:33
rainemakLike said above, there will be a separate forum post.08:34
rainemak#info <Jolla> Second topic, during the community event we had discussions regarding08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> subscription-based pricing model. To continue that discussion, we’d08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> like to ask your thoughts.08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> How much would you be willing to pay from a subscription. Let's think08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> two different models. Both would have software updates done in08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> similar fashion like we did last year (even year 2022). Few major08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> releases plus a few minor updates. Approximately a year ago we had08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> a vote about this in the newsletter.08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> 1) Software updates euros / month ?08:35
rainemak#info <Jolla> 2) Software updates + AppSupport euros / month ?08:35
piggzdo we get a qt upgrade with that? :D08:36
Thaodanthanks for saying it :D08:37
nephrosSaaS? (Sauna as a service)08:37
rainemakThere might be even more models08:38
rainemakNobody dare to say anything08:39
tuplasuhveli[m]1.) This one is a bit hard to judge, but maybe 1-3 euros per month? 2.) I'd say anything around 5 euros sounds reasonable to me. To be fair, I personally, would be willing to pay up to 10 euros, because I really want Jolla to succeed in the future.08:40
rainemakpersonally, I'm think something like 1) ~2e/month 2) ~5e/month08:40
NicoI mean, it's hard to decide whether we should reply what would be ideal for us, or what would be sustainable for Jolla :P08:41
dcalisteWhile we can have live discussions here, it's a question that makes sense to have on the Forum, so more people will see it and discuss it in an async way.08:41
nephrosWell, this would mean that users (curently licensees of the SF X Program) would become proper customers right? With Terms Of Service, SLAs etc.08:41
rainemakNico, more like what's your thought on the pricing08:41
dcalistePaying monthly may imply having regular updates (date based ?) otherwise, people may feel that they pay for something that is a bit random to come.08:42
Crabsteran option for a yearly subscription, perhaps something like how fastmail handle theirs08:42
rainemakdcaliste, everything happens in phases08:42
nephrosI like having AAS available, but I don't use it very often.08:42
nephrosSo I'm not sure I'd subscribe.08:42
Thaodanmaybe similar to humble bundle where you can  select what to pay starting from a minimum08:43
dcalisteNot saying that I would like to go in the direction of date based releases. Just thinking how it could be received.08:43
rainemakdcaliste, good point08:43
ThaodanI think  release cycles have to be figured out how they can be handled08:44
NicoWell; if we keep a similar price to now's model, accounting for inflation, for me it would be something like 15€/year, but I keep my phones for longer than most people, and I don't think that would pay for the staff, etc08:44
rainemakThaodan, not necessarily08:44
Thaodansince some might take longer08:44
nephrosI definitely would subscribe for OBS access though if that will guarantee it will remain available.08:44
NicoI tend to put myself in the place of a poor student too often, since I've been one for most of my life08:44
NicoBut again, they would still have other options08:45
rainemakbut there are of course things like Forum, this meeting, newsletter, OBS, pootle (maybe weblate some day), software hosting, etc08:46
nephrosOh, and, hopefully subscription would mean transferrable licenses, and easier switch of devices?08:46
rainemaknephros, it could be so that you close subscription on one device and continue on another for example08:47
rainemakand without AppSupport it'd cost 2e/m08:48
nephrosrainemak: yeaa, so I pay for "one device" not "this device".08:48
NicoWhat's the yearly price of general productivity suites nowadays? I'm unfamiliar with the topic08:48
nephrosNico: you mean something like
ThaodanI have seen people talking about this kind of topic before08:51
rainemakLet's start wrapping up! We'll appreciate this discussion and certainly continue this open dialogue with you.08:51
Thaodansubscriptions are  a little easier than let's say bug bounties08:51
Niconephros Yeah, any. How much is it in euros? In yen it is 7500/month for 5 devices, which is about 10 euro per device08:51
nephrosNico: I see 30, 50, 130, and 100 Euros on that site.08:52
Nico(I meant what is the cost in Europe)08:52
rainemakThank you very much about your feedback!08:52
Nicoso yeah, about 10/davice08:52
saltpie[m]The best Option in my opinion would be to still make the OS a one time Purchase and add a subscribition for updates but also make the updates available for a one time purchase wich is cheaper than the Subscription but still increases in Price with every Update that you did not buy or subscribe to. Sorry for barging in. Also sorry for my bad Typing im on Mobile.08:53
rainemaksaltpie[m], I don't see that free version of Sailfish OS would disappear08:53
nephrosSome go with a pay-as-you-like model, like the HumbleBundle.08:54
rainemaksaltpie[m], further now we have also moment in time to simplify things08:54
saltpie[m]Oh sorry, my bad i only thougt about the Paid Version08:54
rainemakpay-as-you-like is not necessarily a bad idea either08:54
nephrosI also like how SDF does it (, they have layers mixin one-time and recurring payments.08:56
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)08:56
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024)"08:56
Nicorainemak I think pay-as-you-like may be a good idea in the context of our community, actually08:57
Nicorainemak Are general topics only introduced by Jolla?. I have a general question about how to contact Jolla about their new direction08:57
tuplasuhveli[m]I think the mentioned subscription model has some advantages the current model doesn't have. For example, one could pay 5 euros to test and see, if they can successfully run the Android applications they need in their daily life08:57
rainemakNico, no... general is for all kind of general discussion that you'd like to have08:58
NicoNice! Thanks08:58
Nicothen I copypaste quickly08:58
NicoThe feedback form to Jolla about their future AI operations has been closed08:58
NicoI had prepared several notes with ideas and resources which may be hepful08:58
NicoBut was too busy to merge and format them into something more consistent before it closed08:59
NicoIs there any place where those kind of things can be sent?08:59
NicoJolla's website only shows mails for business partnerships, job applications and helpdesk08:59
rainemakPlease ping me via forum08:59
rainemakProposing Thursday 29th February at 08:00am UTC08:59
Nicook, I'll create an account :D08:59
rainemakah, so you don't have one08:59
NicoI'ts been on the "on day" list for quite a while09:00
Niconot proud09:00
rainemakany objection regarding proposed next meeting?09:01
rainemaksounds not...09:02
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th February 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-29T0800Z09:02
NicoThat will be right after MWC, right?09:02
rainemakThank yo all!09:02
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Feb 15 09:02:28 2024 UTC.09:02
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th February 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-15T0800Z"09:02
Crabsterthx #?09:02
rainemakNico, pinged you on the irc09:03
tuplasuhveli[m]Thanks for the meeting!09:07
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th February 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-29T0800Z"09:55

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