| *** rainemak_ is now known as rainemak | 07:27 | |
| rainemak | good morning | 07:54 |
|---|---|---|
| voidanix[m] | mornin~ | 07:55 |
| tuplasuhveli[m] | Good morning! | 07:58 |
| Crabster | morning | 07:58 |
| rainemak | #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024 | 08:00 |
| sailbot | Meeting started Thu Mar 14 08:00:00 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| sailbot | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 08:00 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:00 | |
| rainemak | #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: | 08:00 |
| rainemak | #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-14th-march-2024/18132 | 08:00 |
| rainemak | I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive. | 08:00 |
| rainemak | #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info | 08:00 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:00 | |
| rainemak | Wow, that was sharp 10:00 | 08:00 |
| rainemak | Not too many topics today but surely some will take more than proposed/reserved. | 08:00 |
| rainemak | #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today | 08:00 |
| nephros | #info nephros, community desktop portal poodle | 08:00 |
| ViGe | #info Ville Nummela - community | 08:00 |
| tuplasuhveli[m] | #info tuplasuhveli, community | 08:01 |
| abr | #info Andrew Branson, sailing by | 08:01 |
| voidanix[m] | #info voidanix - community, i think | 08:01 |
| flypig | #info David Llewellyn-Jones, community | 08:01 |
| pvuorela | #info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla | 08:01 |
| Jetset | #info Jetset | 08:03 |
| direc85[m] | #info Matti Viljanen, community | 08:03 |
| Crabster | #info Crabster - lurker | 08:03 |
| rainemak | very good number of participants | 08:04 |
| rainemak | let's get going | 08:04 |
| rainemak | #topic Increased root partition size on older devices (5mins -- asked by jojomen) | 08:05 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Increased root partition size on older devices (5mins -- asked by jojomen) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:05 | |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> There are numerous threads here and in the old forum about people | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> running into trouble after filling up their root partition. | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> @olf has written a good guide on resizing it. However, it’s | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> tedious work on top of the already somewhat convoluted flashing | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> procedure, and low-level work on the storage config can be scary. | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> Link to guide, that also has some links to forum topics about | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> resizing: | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/problems-when-trying-to-resize-the-root-partition/10563/12 | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> Having the SFOS installation image default to a 4 GB root | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> partition (same as newer devices) would make things easier, and - | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> as olf’s guide points out - an SD card can compensate for the 1.5 | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> GB lost from the home partition. | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> Would Jolla consider making this change or, if not, what are the | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> key factors against it? | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> A comment from olf | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> …, but not automatically altering partition sizes on extant | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> SailfishOS installations. | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> IMO, this simply requires changing two characters in a | 08:05 |
| ExTechOp | #info Otto Mäkelä. community | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> configuration file and no extra quality assurance beyond review | 08:05 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> and checking for typos, because the space on internal mass storage | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> (FLASH memory) is always sufficient for this on all supported | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> Xperia models. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> This measure would alleviate a very common failure mode for | 08:06 |
| ExTechOp | (sorry for being a bit late) | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> SailfishOS upgrades and installing SailfishOS-native software: no | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> space left on root volume. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | Sorry there will be longish answer | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Let’s start from the problem. We’d like to first understand how | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> people end up running out space. What’s causing it? There shouldn’t | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> be anything blocking to increase root partition size for older | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> devices but only for flashable image (no resizing during upgrade). | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Something similar that we did for newer devices. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> There are few scenarios that are easy to foresee / understand. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> From platform developer point of view root partition size can be | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> problematic especially if you’re working on large project(s) and | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> need debug symbols. First thing is to toggle on “Settings -> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Developer Mode -> Store debug symbols to home | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> partition” (alternative you can install package | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> jolla-developer-mode-home-debug-location). This way debug symbols | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> won’t consume space from root partition. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Secondly using alternative Sailfish app stores might cause | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> problems. Of course, also just installing tons of apps. | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> For apps we are considering something like /opt/apps/<app-name>/ | 08:06 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> application root path that would be out of root partition. Under | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> this application root path, developers should still use & follow | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS) for example like: | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> /opt/apps/<app_name>/usr/bin/<app_name> | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> /opt/apps/<app_name>/usr/share/<app_name>/ | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> /opt/apps/<app_name>/usr/share/applications/<app_name>.desktop | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> There are two related goals that should be kept in mind: | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> 1) apps should not be installed to the root partition | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> 2) root partition should eventually be readonly | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> If both of these would be met, then size of root partition would | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> not be that big of an issue. For time being maybe we just adjust | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> root partition for the older devices – we’ll comment this more a | 08:07 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> bit later. | 08:07 |
| rainemak | ExTechOp, no worries | 08:07 |
| rainemak | Would somebody have case where you have run of space on root? What has caused it? | 08:08 |
| voidanix[m] | waydroid | 08:08 |
| nephros | rainemak: it is always apps, through to library packaging requirements making packages very small. | 08:09 |
| nephros | sorry large. | 08:09 |
| rainemak | voidanix[m], ok thank you | 08:09 |
| rainemak | nephros, moving apps to out of root partition to let's say /opt/apps would help that | 08:10 |
| voidanix[m] | w/ 4GB root you can install very few apps in the container; it installs itself in /opt/waydroid IIRC | 08:10 |
| nephros | I guess, yes. | 08:10 |
| direc85[m] | There's a nice application that lets you visualize the disk space used; Space Inspector. | 08:10 |
| nephros | Maybe /opt/apps could even be something like unionfs, collecting apps from device storag, and SD card? | 08:10 |
| rainemak | voidanix[m], it should probably create a symlink from /opt/waydroid to /home/.system/waydroid | 08:11 |
| rainemak | this way it'd go to home | 08:11 |
| direc85[m] | Using /opt/apps/ for user-installed applications sounds excellent! | 08:11 |
| rainemak | thinking is that whatever is the size of the root partition, it can be filled | 08:11 |
| nephros | One thing that is eating some space from the OS is l10n files. | 08:11 |
| flypig | I agree, moving the app executable dir out of root makes sense. | 08:12 |
| nephros | /usr/share/locale is 80+MB | 08:12 |
| rainemak | it would like be a symlink to /home/.system/apps | 08:12 |
| rainemak | flypig, target / goal is that eventually root partition would be turned to readonly | 08:12 |
| flypig | Even better :) | 08:12 |
| flypig | I've also experienced it (yesterday as it happens) installing libraries to /usr/lib64. But this was for development; not typical. | 08:12 |
| voidanix[m] | direc85 wouldn't /usr/local/ be a better candidate? | 08:12 |
| rainemak | flypig, that's platform dev headache :-) I feel you | 08:13 |
| Thaodan | #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla | 08:13 |
| Thaodan | Sorry lost track of time | 08:13 |
| nephros | FDO/FHS people do not like /usr/local | 08:13 |
| Thaodan | They don't like /opt/apps either.. | 08:14 |
| nephros | true! | 08:14 |
| rainemak | #info Extended topic by 5mins | 08:14 |
| voidanix[m] | at least one is standardized across basically all distros | 08:14 |
| flypig | What's the situation with apps on a multi-user device? | 08:14 |
| rainemak | ~ minute to go | 08:14 |
| rainemak | flypig, no difference | 08:14 |
| Thaodan | I think /opt/apps is a solution for a problem that is self created that will create more problems | 08:14 |
| flypig | App access is controlled by shortcuts? | 08:15 |
| Thaodan | deduplication and using more of the unused storage should help further | 08:15 |
| flypig | Or everyone has access to all apps? | 08:15 |
| direc85[m] | voidanix Could be. Using /opt/ would keep the separation larger and simpler in my opinion. And in some distros /usr/local/bin and /usr/bin point to the same place. | 08:15 |
| nephros | Another place for the OS that could be reviewed is /usr/share/fonts. That's 33MB, and maybe thinks like the symbola font are not necessary. | 08:15 |
| rainemak | flypig, I'm not sure if I'm following | 08:15 |
| abr | it'd be nice to see the old maemo word 'optification' brought back :) | 08:16 |
| rainemak | flypig, Sailfish OS are shared for each device users... app specific data is user specific | 08:16 |
| rainemak | have we covered this topic | 08:16 |
| direc85[m] | Using something like /opt/apps/<username>/ could make per-user applications possible. | 08:16 |
| flypig | rainemak, sorry, I'm describing it poorly, but you just answered me. I was wondering if there are user-specific apps, but there aren't (only user-specific data). | 08:17 |
| direc85[m] | Actually, disregard my previous comment. ~/.local/bin is the place for per-user binaries. | 08:17 |
| rainemak | over time already... let's move on | 08:17 |
| Thaodan | nephros: Symbola is used for is used for emojiis? I think. not sure | 08:17 |
| dcaliste | #info Damien Caliste, community | 08:17 |
| dcaliste | Sorry to be late. | 08:18 |
| Thaodan | Any work like we talk about should not be done before /usrmove is done | 08:18 |
| nephros | Thaodan: yes, but there are better emoji fonts | 08:18 |
| rainemak | I'll give 2 more mins | 08:18 |
| voidanix[m] | direc85 sure, apps can also be snug under ~/.apps ala flatpak | 08:18 |
| Thaodan | after usrmove we can separate /usr and /var better | 08:18 |
| nephros | what's usrmove? | 08:18 |
| Thaodan | nephros: /bin /lib -> to /usr/bin /usr/lib | 08:19 |
| rainemak | as this discussion is flourishing | 08:19 |
| nephros | ah that one. | 08:19 |
| Thaodan | essentially you can remove all files from / that are in /usr and just have /usr as rootfs | 08:19 |
| rainemak | discussion drifting quite a bit... | 08:19 |
| rainemak | let's do not fix whole world now | 08:20 |
| rainemak | sounds like a plausible newsletter topic actually | 08:20 |
| rainemak | moving on | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #topic RCS Messenging (5mins -- asked by Cryx) | 08:20 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "RCS Messenging (5mins -- asked by Cryx) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:20 | |
| Thaodan | is empty besides /etc and /var can be on a separate volume. The point is that don't add more mess before cleaning up. | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> RCS seems to be at least the new Standard as Apple jumps on that | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> train too (forced by the DMA of course…). On the long road RCS | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> will be the successor of SMS/MMS services. What’s the status for | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> RCS support on Sailfish OS? | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> We brought that topic on from time to time here in the forum (not | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> just my me…), but it seems we never had that in a community | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> meeting. So, the main questions are if there was any | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> thinking/investigation if and how these services could be added | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> to SFOS. | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> To my mind it’s an interesting topic to also now if this might be | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> possible as an implemented always on service like phone and SMS | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> (as, we all know that other native messengers need to run in | 08:20 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> background to receive messages). | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> As said above I’ll probably won’t make it into the meeting, but | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> in fact I’m just user and no dev and might not really help in the | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <jojomen> discussion at all. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Thank pherjung for your checking what other distributions are doing | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> to enable Rich Communication Services (RCS). No findings. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Apple’s jump was not forced by Digital Markets Act (DMA) as | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> iMessage was not deemed as gatekeeper by the European Commission. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Actually, Rich Communication Services (RCS) is not even mentioned | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> there. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #link https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/mex_24_785 | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> The Rich Communication Services (RCS) has been “coming” around 15 | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> years. Maybe now with Apple’s push it could really lift off and | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> GSMA will agree on standard. That said, it’s still a phone carrier | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> protocol just like SMS with similar security model. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #link https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/01/what-apples-promise-support-rcs-means-text-messaging | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> We have been looking into this but so far always seen this as not | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> yet mandatory. Effort wise this is huge. Whether RCS would be | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> compatible with current messaging architecture is another big | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> topic. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Further, we should think & compare RCS to Signal for example. | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Could/Should we somehow facilitate deeper Whisperfish integration – | 08:21 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> maybe we should? | 08:21 |
| flypig | We should! | 08:22 |
| ExTechOp | (just a side note, dammit, why did they want to use the RCS acronym, the world is full of 3-letter acronyms, and they reuse the one for Revision Control System?) | 08:22 |
| voidanix[m] | tbh RCS is not better than SMS - the reason it's getting adopted so much is because every phone ships Google Messages | 08:23 |
| sebix[m] | switch to VCS (Version Control system) :) | 08:23 |
| Thaodan | :D | 08:23 |
| voidanix[m] | which is absolutely packed with proprietary extensions | 08:23 |
| abr | I didn't know apple were going for RCS now. It's been in Google's messaging app for a while so that's going to be important | 08:23 |
| rainemak | ExTechOp, hehe, indeed | 08:23 |
| abr | but sfos messages need to support multi-user chats first. MMS does those. very popular in the US | 08:23 |
| Thaodan | I think RCS will be necessary sooner or later. | 08:24 |
| Thaodan | If we would have a connection manager that does rcs for telepathy it would be great. | 08:24 |
| rainemak | Thaodan, eventually yes | 08:24 |
| ExTechOp | I remember back when Sailfish started, the "selling point" of the device was thorough integration of the different messaging protocols, unfortunately it hasn't been like that for a while. | 08:24 |
| ViGe | yup, when both google and apple use RCS, it's going to be expected to be supported by everyone. | 08:24 |
| abr | the volte work implemented IMS a bit, which volte shares with RCS | 08:24 |
| abr | but google uses a 3rd party to provide RCS iirc | 08:25 |
| Thaodan | abr: Not really. IMS is done inside the modem mostly. Can we do RCS outside the modem using that? | 08:25 |
| direc85[m] | As a Whisperfish dev, I know we'd love to be able to integrate into the OS in a Harbour compatible way. Whisperfish is already highly non-compatible. But that's another topic. | 08:25 |
| rainemak | abr, +1 for multi-user chat | 08:25 |
| voidanix[m] | I expect apple's implementation to be very barebones, not by choice, but because the standardized spec is | 08:25 |
| Thaodan | Sailfish OS telepathy was the only one missing group chat ui | 08:25 |
| abr | Thaodan: iiuc the modem provides the auth tokens for RCS | 08:25 |
| Thaodan | abr: ah thanks | 08:25 |
| abr | through ims | 08:25 |
| abr | same for the wifi calling stuff | 08:26 |
| abr | vowifi | 08:26 |
| Thaodan | I think a requirement for rcs would be that all the volte stuff is available for all devices not just Jolla devices. | 08:26 |
| Thaodan | my ports are volte capable but dont get access to them | 08:26 |
| abr | not even sure if that's possible. it's all super proprietary isn't it | 08:26 |
| rainemak | abr, these are all big items and I can almost surely say that we cannot pull them off this year... maybe plausible to get some of them done by doing together with you all | 08:28 |
| Thaodan | That would be a great idea. | 08:28 |
| abr | huge amount of work. might be good to try to do it with other distros | 08:28 |
| Thaodan | If we can implement some of the enables for the community that would be great | 08:28 |
| Thaodan | abr: agreed | 08:28 |
| rainemak | abr, I thought the same regarding rcs | 08:28 |
| abr | this apple news is good motivation | 08:29 |
| Thaodan | however I wonder how can the work be shared in hybris vs mainline stacks | 08:29 |
| rainemak | next by nephros is long one | 08:29 |
| flypig | I think Jolla should be aiming to provide interfaces for others to add things to. A messaging interface that apps can plug in to (so messaging apps don't have to run services), and which different backends can attach to. | 08:29 |
| Thaodan | plus it has to be independent of the network manager involved | 08:29 |
| Thaodan | flypig: that's telepathy and the accounts framework.. | 08:30 |
| Thaodan | but both a a nono in harbour | 08:30 |
| abr | multiuser chats for MMS would be really good baby step. need to know how those look | 08:30 |
| nephros | ... and libsocialcache to a degree | 08:30 |
| rainemak | alright, let's move on | 08:30 |
| Thaodan | ping me on irc if help is needed :) | 08:30 |
| abr | if that can be done in telepathy, then the likes of signal/whisperfish could be integrated too :) | 08:30 |
| rainemak | #topic XDG Desktop Portals (10mins -- asked by nephros) | 08:30 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "XDG Desktop Portals (10mins -- asked by nephros) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:30 | |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> Sorry for the wall-of text below. Most of it is informational | 08:30 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> -only/General Discussion, specific questions to Jollyboys in | 08:30 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> Part 2, below. | 08:30 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Too long post, so here’s a link to the post: | 08:30 |
| rainemak | #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-14th-march-2024/18132/7 | 08:30 |
| direc85[m] | abr, agreed! | 08:31 |
| rainemak | abr, yeap | 08:31 |
| piggz | great work on the portal so far imo | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Part 1 Informational: State of the PoC | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Good to see progress! | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Part 2 Questions to Jollyboys | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> a) Regarding naming, we’d propose to go with Sailfish as the | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> implementation will eventually be Sailfish OS specific. Whilst this | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> link regarding coding conventions points to apps it applies well | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> for platform development as well. | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #link https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Apps/Coding_Conventions/ | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> So, D-Bus names org.sailfishos -prefix, use namespace Sailfish | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Amber is meant for platform agnostic components. | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> b) At this point LGPLv3+ is still problematic. If plausible, would | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> be simpler to rewrite those sources pulling in LGPLv3+ and go with | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> a compatible license. | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> c) It should go to /var/lib/environment/nemo/[dd]-name.conf that | 08:31 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> then gets included by user@.service | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> d) Sounds like PartOf=user-session.target might be applicable. | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Alternatively: Many services (e.g. ngfd) utilize “preinstalled” | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> WantedBy= user-session.target symlinks in | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> user-session.target.wants -directory. | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> e) Not really at this point | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Part 3 Questions to everybody | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> 1. Given that license is sorted out we could take this to the | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> github.com/sailfishos | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> 2. Other important things to add? | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> | 08:32 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Part 4 Informational: Future outlook and challenges | 08:32 |
| rainemak | piggz, great progress indeed | 08:32 |
| nephros | Thanks, good answers! | 08:32 |
| Thaodan | c) Violates FHS. Eventually it would make sense to follow the environment.d standard. | 08:33 |
| rainemak | Thaodan, we're not fixing that nemo thingie now | 08:33 |
| rainemak | Thaodan, there are also some systemd related things that we should take into use ... but that's another topic as well | 08:34 |
| direc85[m] | Great work with the portals! SailfishOS is turning into quite a versatile platform! | 08:34 |
| nephros | One thing that needs to be thought about with Portals is the Permissions aspect. | 08:35 |
| nephros | It kinda clashes with the SailJail concept. | 08:35 |
| Thaodan | nephros: I'm not sure how the concept can be adjusted. I noticed Qt6 has permissions builtin but it also depends on the platform below. | 08:36 |
| nephros | Portal does on-demand/on-access permissions, while SJ of course does everything at binary lanch. | 08:36 |
| flypig | To add to what others said: amazing work nephros. | 08:36 |
| abr | sailjail could be adjusted to provide everything that other permissions can control | 08:37 |
| Thaodan | abr: question if firejail can be adjusted? | 08:37 |
| rainemak | abr, i think so | 08:37 |
| rainemak | Thaodan, or developed forward | 08:37 |
| abr | firejail will mount whatever you tell it to | 08:37 |
| rainemak | abr, yeap | 08:37 |
| abr | so if you tell it to mount everything that other permissions can control, then it will. it's still important that it hides bits of the fs that apps should never be able to access, such as other app's data. | 08:38 |
| rainemak | there will be easily work on the area of xdg-dbus-proxy | 08:38 |
| Thaodan | abr: Of course it does but how does it handle cases where a permission doesn't exist anymore for an app at runtime? | 08:39 |
| rainemak | one minute | 08:39 |
| Thaodan | Firejail just executes a profile before starting and then continues without change. | 08:39 |
| abr | then it would be up to the higher level permission system to handle that. | 08:39 |
| nephros | The point is though, Portals are by design running outside the sandbox. So, e.g. the File picker can choose files that the app that it handed back the URIs cannot access. | 08:39 |
| abr | wouldn't that be the case for other app container systems too e.g. flatpak? | 08:40 |
| direc85[m] | The clash between portals and firejail is causing issues elsewhere too, so there may be some solutions out there already. | 08:40 |
| nephros | One question from me: where do we continue architecutral/integration discussions? Forum? Github? elsewhere? | 08:40 |
| rainemak | time is running out, moving on... sorry to stop this lively discussion... let's try to continue some discussion in the generic part | 08:40 |
| rainemak | #topic Release of adaptation repos for devices dropped in SFOS 4.6 (2-3mins -- asked by nephros) | 08:41 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Release of adaptation repos for devices dropped in SFOS 4.6 (2-3mins -- asked by nephros) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:41 | |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> Any chance of making available the necessary materials needed for | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> community ports of devices whose support has been dropped for | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> SFOS 4.6? | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> Community porters may be able to continue support for older | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> devices if enabled to do so. | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> It would also be a nice legacy for the Jolla Tablet if it could | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> live on a bit, something that was unfortunately not possible for | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> the original Jolla phone. (Although I fear, of all the dropped | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> devices, the chance for getting the Tablet materials is the | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <nephros> slimmest.) | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Jolla C & Tablet are tricky as there were some proprietary sources. | 08:41 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Sony Xperia X repositories are already available. | 08:41 |
| rainemak | nephros, feel free to ping me if you need more info regarding xperia x | 08:41 |
| nephros | rainemak: thanks, unfortunately my XC has developped bulging battery syndrome | 08:42 |
| rainemak | I think this doesn't need more time | 08:42 |
| rainemak | let's move on | 08:42 |
| nephros | How about the Gemini? | 08:42 |
| nephros | Is that also already out there? | 08:43 |
| rainemak | Same as tablet i think | 08:43 |
| nephros | OK | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #topic Migrating alphabetical scrollbar to Silica (10mins -- asked by tuplasuhveli) | 08:43 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Migrating alphabetical scrollbar to Silica (10mins -- asked by tuplasuhveli) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:43 | |
| Thaodan | In case one wants to start porting Xperia X I can help with starting the port and manage bugs. My project is open for more community ports | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <tuplasuhveli> This idea rose from a conversation regarding Flowplayer 2, | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <tuplasuhveli> but other SFOS apps could also benefit from the neat | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <tuplasuhveli> scrollbar presented in SFOS People app. Could Jolla consider | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <tuplasuhveli> adding the scrollbar into the Silica components? | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #link https://github.com/sailfishos-applications/flowplayer | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Yes, this could well be something to consider. It has some | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> references to contacts that should be cut before it could be even | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> considered to be moved to Silica. Very good suggestion! Needs more | 08:43 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> thinking and planning. | 08:43 |
| rainemak | tuplasuhveli[m], to complement above, this won't happen anytime soon I'd say | 08:44 |
| tuplasuhveli[m] | Yeah, it doesn't sound like the number one priority :D | 08:44 |
| rainemak | let's move on... | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #topic Qt version (5mins -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys) | 08:45 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Qt version (5mins -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:45 | |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> Sorry if this was recently discussed - I was just looking | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> up some documentation on certain QML elements and | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> realized that the oldest version of Qt that still has | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> documentation available is 5.15, while the Sailfish | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> documentation is very far from complete and relies on the | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> official Qt documentation. Though the documentation | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> thankfully still notes when things were added all in all | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> the situation to continue developing on much older | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> versions is getting worse also from the point of view of | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> being able to open docs and understanding what behaviour | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <KeeperoftheKeys> should be. | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> You can find Qt 5.6 documentation here. | 08:45 |
| rainemak | #link https://doc.qt.io/archives/qt-5.6/index.html | 08:45 |
| rainemak | that you nephros for answering already in the forum thread | 08:45 |
| rainemak | please, no need to go into Qt upgrade discussion now | 08:45 |
| rainemak | I think this is covered | 08:46 |
| rainemak | #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla) | 08:46 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:46 | |
| rainemak | #info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss? | 08:46 |
| Thaodan | The Qt 5.15 dopcumentation works quite well even fro Qt 5.6 as it mentions when a feature was changed/added | 08:46 |
| direc85[m] | I'm interested in the state of Rust 1.75: https://github.com/sailfishos/rust/pull/22 | 08:47 |
| ViGe | I believe Qt 5.6 documentation is also bundled with the SDK | 08:47 |
| direc85[m] | The last I head of it was the TMPDIR fix worked in OBS too. | 08:47 |
| ExTechOp | Is there anything that Jolla folks might be able to divulge, eg. new hardware in the pipeline for SFOS? | 08:48 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], if I'm not mistaken there were issues to build gecko esr78 against it | 08:48 |
| rainemak | some back porting needed | 08:48 |
| Thaodan | or flypig is faster XD | 08:48 |
| rainemak | thus, I'd rush it in | 08:48 |
| voidanix[m] | talking about backporting, what about kernel upgrades? https://github.com/mer-hybris/android_kernel_sony_msm/pull/136 | 08:49 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], hopefully this doesn't hinder much your Whisperfish development | 08:49 |
| rainemak | Thaodan, yes esr91 is an option as well | 08:49 |
| direc85[m] | rainemak Thanks for the info. I suppose this is something the community could try helping with? | 08:49 |
| rainemak | will check | 08:50 |
| ViGe | voidanix[m]: is there something particularly interesting in those upgrades? | 08:50 |
| ExTechOp | Also, is there any work on the Sony binary blobs, if I've understood correctly the normal SFOS updates don't update them? | 08:50 |
| voidanix[m] | other than a display fix for tama, not really | 08:50 |
| direc85[m] | rainemak No, Whisperfish is well in the 1.75 era now! Our CI/CD uses a custom build image with updated Rust too, so we're covered. | 08:50 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], very good | 08:51 |
| voidanix[m] | i'm looking into fixing more tama things in the future, but the port pulls from the mer-hybris kernel | 08:51 |
| rainemak | #action Check voidanix[m] comment, talking about backporting, what about kernel upgrades? https://github.com/mer-hybris/android_kernel_sony_msm/pull/136 | 08:51 |
| rainemak | As there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion. We could spend a few minutes there. | 08:52 |
| rainemak | #topic General discussion (6 min) | 08:52 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (6 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:52 | |
| Thaodan | ExTechOp: We/I have figured out on how to manage the issue but it requires work to do it properly in the ui. For community ports I would work on the lower level parts such as the initrd to check the right blob version to avoid issues. | 08:52 |
| rainemak | I have one myself... | 08:52 |
| rainemak | Would somebody like to volunteer to be translation coordinator for Finnish language? | 08:52 |
| rainemak | #link https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/L10n/#coordinators | 08:52 |
| Thaodan | I would try out the kumano port as the first port to test the upgrade process. | 08:53 |
| Thaodan | But first I had to figure out os upgrades for community ports through the ui which is done now | 08:53 |
| ExTechOp | Thaodan Excellent! I'm sure we'll hear from you once things progress. | 08:54 |
| rainemak | Thanks for each participants... I enjoyed hosting this once again! What a great discussion we had! | 08:54 |
| voidanix[m] | Thaodan I'm not sure about upgrading the binaries, they are proprietary sony stuff | 08:55 |
| rainemak | before somebody says, there was a question from this morning as well... let's cover that in the forum | 08:55 |
| direc85[m] | rainemak I can be a coordinator. | 08:55 |
| ExTechOp | Is there anything that (the company formerly known as) Jolla folks might be able to divulge, eg. new hardware in the pipeline for SFOS? | 08:55 |
| direc85[m] | (Here I go, assuming Finnish was handled in-house!) | 08:56 |
| Thaodan | voidanix[m]: we're not upgrading the binaries but providing ui/guidance to upgrade them during the upgrade or download them so the installer can flash them | 08:56 |
| rainemak | ExTechOp, I commented about Sony xperia 10 IV & 10 V in the last newsletter | 08:56 |
| rainemak | ExTechOp, will dig out a link for you | 08:56 |
| ExTechOp | Thanks! | 08:57 |
| voidanix[m] | Thaodan: ah, I see | 08:57 |
| rainemak | #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-7th-march-2024-eula/18184 | 08:57 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], give a look to the link regarding coordinators and the last paragraph | 08:58 |
| direc85[m] | Will do! | 08:59 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], and thank you for volunteering | 08:59 |
| rainemak | let' | 08:59 |
| rainemak | let's schedule next meeting | 08:59 |
| rainemak | #topic Next meeting time and date (1 mins) | 08:59 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (1 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024)" | 08:59 | |
| rainemak | Proposing Thursday 28th March at 08:00am UTC | 08:59 |
| direc85[m] | Works for me | 09:00 |
| flypig | Right before Easter. LGTM. | 09:00 |
| ExTechOp | Works for me too | 09:00 |
| rainemak | correct | 09:00 |
| rainemak | let's it then | 09:01 |
| rainemak | #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 28th March 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-03-28T0800Z | 09:01 |
| rainemak | #endmeeting | 09:01 |
| sailbot | Meeting ended Thu Mar 14 09:01:30 2024 UTC. | 09:01 |
| sailbot | Minutes: https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2024/sailfishos-meeting.2024-03-14-08.00.html | 09:01 |
| sailbot | Minutes (text): https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2024/sailfishos-meeting.2024-03-14-08.00.txt | 09:01 |
| sailbot | Log: https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2024/sailfishos-meeting.2024-03-14-08.00.log.html | 09:01 |
| *** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th February 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-29T0800Z" | 09:01 | |
| flypig | Thank you rainemak & all for the nice meeting once again :D | 09:01 |
| ExTechOp | Thanks everybody, once again! | 09:01 |
| nephros | Thanks Jolla, thanks everyone! I think this was a good one. | 09:01 |
| direc85[m] | Great discussion indeed! Thanks! | 09:02 |
| tuplasuhveli[m] | Good questions and good answers everybody! | 09:02 |
| Crabster | thx #? | 09:02 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], yeap Finnish mostly handled internally but I see Finnish language as good ground for community coordination as well | 09:58 |
| rainemak | direc85[m], once again thanks | 09:58 |
| direc85[m] | <a data-mention-type="user" href="https://matrix.to/#/@_oftc_rainemak:matrix.org" contenteditable="false">@rainemak</a> You're welcome! | 13:53 |
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