Thursday, 2024-05-30

ExTechOpGood Morning, everyone! The channel /topic does not seem to have been updated for today's meeting?06:55
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 202407:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu May 30 07:00:24 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.07:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:00
rainemakExTechOp, maybe I forgot to update it last time07:00
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today07:01
direc85[m]#info Matti Viljanen, community07:02
ilpianista#info Andrea Scarpino, SailfishOS user, maintainer of some app07:03
Keto#info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla07:04
rubdos[m]#info Ruben De Smet, rubdos07:05
rainemakNice number of questions today. Unfortunately one come too late. We'll cover that at the forum.07:05
rainemakWelcome all07:05
rainemak#topic Sony Xperia 10 IV and V base firmware for Sailfish installation (5mins -- asked by ExTechOp)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Sony Xperia 10 IV and V base firmware for Sailfish installation (5mins -- asked by ExTechOp) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:05
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> Please let us know at your earliest convenient time what version07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> of the Sony Xperia 10 IV and V base firmware you want to have at07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> Sailfish install time. Once we get our phones and run them a while07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> on Android (to verify they are functioning normally, as you07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> recommend), the system may want to update itself to beyond what07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> the Sailfish installer expects, and this of course could be07:06
rainemak#info <ExTechOp> problematic.07:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Yes, thank you. Yes, do inform you as soon as possible. Currently07:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> it’s Android 13 based.07:06
rubdos[m]rainemak: Uh oh :)07:06
rubdos[m](Oh, it's not mine)07:07
rainemakNot yours07:08
rainemakNeeded to cut time from direc85[m] 's first one as well07:09
ExTechOpI currently have Android 14 on a Google Pixel, and I am a bit worried that Sony might at some point also update to that.07:09
rainemakI believe we can cover that as well in time07:09
rainemakExTechOp, we noticed that 14 is available already07:09
rainemakas a backup there's always Emma07:10
rainemaklet's move on07:10
rainemak#topic The Jolla Mind2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen)07:10
*** sailbot changes topic to "The Jolla Mind2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:10
rainemak#info <Jolla> Long list of questions. Hence, a link to forum.07:10
rainemak#info <Jolla> Thank you jojomen & throwaway69 for the Jolla Mind 2 questions.07:11
rainemak#info <Jolla> Anything related to the Jolla Mind 2 please join to the established07:11
rainemak#info <Jolla> Jolla Mind 2 discord server 10 there’s a mind2 channel. There are07:11
rainemak#info <Jolla> technical people to give you answers.07:11
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:11
rainemak#info <Jolla> We’ll pass these questions to Mind 2 team. Thanks.07:11
ExTechOp(Yes, I've messed around with Emma and would prefer to avoid that.)07:11
rainemaksomehow there's an extra 10... please ignore that07:12
rainemakHave you already joined to the discord?07:14
direc85[m]I have (finally)07:14
rainemaklet's take next one...07:15
rainemak#topic Jolla Community Phone 2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen)07:15
*** sailbot changes topic to "Jolla Community Phone 2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 1) How long will it last on a battery charge? (Say, compared to the XA2 or 10III.)07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 2) Does it run a mainline kernel?07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 2.1) If not, for how long is the SoC supported by its07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 2.1) manufacturer?07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 3) Which periferals use mainline drivers?07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 3.1) For those that do not, for how long are drivers supported by07:15
rainemak#info <jojomen> 3.1) the manufacturer?07:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Thank you for your questions!07:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> 1) Seems to be lasting long but unfortunately, I do not have07:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> comparison numbers.07:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> 2) No, it doesn’t run mainline kernel.07:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> 3) No, it doesn't use mainline drivers.07:16
rainemakwhat a silence...07:19
rainemak#topic Licence subscriptions (5mins -- asked by jojomen)07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen> What developer subscription options will there be?07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen>07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen> The SFOS app ecosystem relies on individual efforts, with no07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen> feasible way to recuperate costs. Making sure an app works and07:19
*** sailbot changes topic to "Licence subscriptions (5mins -- asked by jojomen) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen> looks ok means testing on many devices, which would make07:19
rainemak#info <jojomen> subscription costs high for the developer. As a result, developers07:20
rainemak#info <jojomen> will be incentivized to limit testing.07:20
rainemak#info <Jolla> What kind of models would you like to see? Calling proposals from07:20
rainemak#info <Jolla> those who feel it concerns them.07:20
rainemakAbove is also good for you rubdos[m] and direc85[m]07:20
ilpianistaI was proposing discounts based on number of PR merged in OSS projects owned by Jolla07:20
ilpianistaor "Pay (part of the) subscription for this dev" button in the Jolla Store07:21
ilpianistaor just implement paid apps in the Jolla Store...07:21
rainemakLet's gather feedback and see ideas that you all have07:21
direc85[m]Well, I do have a selection of supported devices, and those having perpetual license is certainly a good thing.07:22
rainemakilpianista, I've been thinking in different context some sort of a contributor of a month kind of reward07:23
rainemak^ not necessarily far from you idea07:23
direc85[m]For the new license models, a reasonably-priced perpetual license came first to mind...07:24
rubdos[m]Maybe integrating LIberapay somewhat into the Jolla Store would also be an idea. IMO those things map rather neatly07:24
ilpianistayup, that would also be nice, but maybe "top 3" not just one? I mean with Ruben De Smet and direc85  around is hard to become number 1 :-P07:24
rainemakilpianista, surely that kind of a reward could not given always to the same07:25
direc85[m]Then again, how many of us develop features that require Android App Support etc. features? I require Android App Support for my daily driver, but for development purposes with the things I tinker with the free license is actually enough.07:25
ilpianistarubdos[m]: I would love liberapay integration, but often I've mailed privately because people don't like "subscriptions"07:25
ilpianistaand thus they prefer paypal07:25
rubdos[m]ilpianista: FWIW, I have *nothing* on the Jolla store myself :D07:25
ilpianistadirec85[m]: agreed07:25
rubdos[m]ilpianista: multiple options is certainly necessary. But I think it should be one of them. Jolla could facilitate a lot of the friction there.07:26
rainemakrubdos[m], let's try to figure out how to get Whisperfish there :)07:26
rainemakshall we move on... this deserves a forum thread of it's own07:27
rainemak#topic Some details on few topics I care (5mins -- asked by ilpianista)07:27
*** sailbot changes topic to "Some details on few topics I care (5mins -- asked by ilpianista) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> Is there any plan to implement these features? If not, could07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> you please opensource the components?07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista>07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> 1) Automatically mount *encrypted* sd-card07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> 2) ICE (In Case Of Emergency) field on lock screen 107:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> Option to scramble PIN layout when unlocking device 107:27
ilpianistarainemak: maybe we should also consider translators here07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista>07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> EDIT: using patchmanager to solve those isn’t a viable solution07:27
rainemak#info <ilpianista> as I don’t want to mess with hacky workarounds.07:27
rainemakilpianista, certainly07:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> Currently these are not in the roadmap. First two would be nice and07:28
rainemak#info <Jolla> valuable (surely 3rd one as well). Scrambling the PIN layout needs07:28
rainemak#info <Jolla> more thinking. Very valuable input, we’ll consider these to the07:28
rainemak#info <Jolla> roadmap.07:28
rubdos[m]rainemak: Our side has a plan for that, but we should execute it at some point too :'-)07:28
ilpianistarainemak: like for SailfishOS 4.6.x or 5?07:29
direc85[m]Those would be nice features to have indeed :)07:30
rainemakilpianista, let's see07:30
direc85[m](I think we could list the current Store incompatibilities as a starting point.)07:32
rainemakdirec85[m], that's a good starting point07:32
rainemak#topic Software licences (5mins -- asked by jojomen)07:32
rainemak#info <jojomen> Please elaborate a bit on the good news about the GPL v3 “not07:32
rainemak#info <jojomen> being a problem” (announced during Love Day) and the possibility07:32
rainemak#info <jojomen> to open source parts (like happened briefly in October last year)07:32
*** sailbot changes topic to "Software licences (5mins -- asked by jojomen) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> Let’s clarify. We did not announce that GPLv3 is good. Sami talked07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> about former limitation that we had. Let’s see what future07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> brings :).07:33
rainemakdirec85[m], would you like to take an action there regarding current Store incompatibilities from your point of view?07:34
rainemakdirec85[m], maybe drafting in forum07:34
direc85[m]rainemak: Sure, I'll do that07:34
rainemakdirec85[m], thank you07:35
direc85[m]I'm not sure how to react to the GPLv3 clarification. It doesn't sound like Qt 6 however...07:36
rainemak#topic Catching Ctrl-Enter in QML (5mins -- asked by direc85)07:37
*** sailbot changes topic to "Catching Ctrl-Enter in QML (5mins -- asked by direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:37
rainemak#info <Jolla> Requested 10mins, giving you 5mins.07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> Many desktop chat applications can be configured so that while07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> typing a message, Enter on the keyboard makes a new line and07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> Ctrl-Enter or Shift-Enter sends the message. Using a Bluetooth or07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> USB keyboard with Sailfish OS, it doesn’t seem to be possible to07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> catch the modifier keys in QML TextArea item to replicate the07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> behaviour. Is it possible to catch the modifiers, and if so, how07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> could it be done? If not, would it be possible to have this07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> feature in a future release?07:37
rainemak#info <direc85>07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> PS. Yes, the context is Whisperfish here, but this should apply to07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> Messages and other messaging applications too - if they choose to07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> implement it. There are plenty of other keyboard-navigation ideas07:37
rainemak#info <direc85> I have, but let’s start with this first.07:37
rainemak#info <Jolla> Sorry Direc85, we just didn’t have time try to sort out this for07:37
rainemak#info <Jolla> you.07:37
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:37
rainemak#info <Jolla> That said, we’ll get back to you on the matter.07:37
rainemak#info Please ping me if don’t hear from us.07:38
direc85[m]Thanks for the answer, I'll ping you at some point if needed07:39
direc85[m]I'm also happy to see the question received plenty of likes07:41
rainemak#topic Delete email action for events view (10mins -- asked by direc85)07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> As I receive quite a lot of update notifications via email, and07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> just reading the title is enough, it would be handy if there was a07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> third action for the email in events view - deleting the email.07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> I’m sure others users too would find good use of the feature. Some07:41
*** sailbot changes topic to "Delete email action for events view (10mins -- asked by direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> applications already provide more than two actions, for example07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> WhatsApp messages offer three actions, so that shouldn’t be an07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> issue. Could this feature be added to to Email in a future07:41
rainemak#info <direc85> release?07:41
rainemak#info <Jolla> While could fit some uses, we need to be cautious on deleting07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> content which cannot be (easily) returned. Commonly that’s protected07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> by remorse items, and notification actions can be even more easy to07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> trigger by accident. However, the remorse from client side does not07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> necessarily fit the notification system that well. Also, while we07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> cannot control how many notification actions Android apps use, there07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> should probably be some threshold of going over the two.07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> That said, we see and hear your point of view.07:42
rainemakThis requires a bit more thinking on how to approach this. In my daily usage I could see benefit of deleting email directly from notification.07:43
direc85[m]Being cautious about deleting content is indeed a valid point.07:44
direc85[m]Having it as a default-disabled setting would be one option to mitigate it...07:44
rainemakdcaliste, we're just talking about delete email action for events view07:45
dcalisteI'm reading the back log about it !07:45
dcalisteCould lipstick event view page host a remorse item ?07:46
dcalisteLipstick would be the client then.07:47
rainemakdirec85[m], also the fact that you're doing a conscious decision07:47
abrI wonder if that would need the opposite of a remorse dialog to guard against pocket deletions - a confirm countdown dialog?07:48
direc85[m]Remorse timer would work, but doesn't protect against pocket deletions...07:48
rainemakabr, good question... I'm not personally seeing pocket events view whatever actions but I do use security code and "No delay"07:49
direc85[m]Double-tapping the delete button would make the action more conscious, but it would be a new interaction type...07:49
abryeah. that's a good point that requiring unlock would also do it, but only if no delay is set07:50
ExTechOpOne option could (in the case of email) be to just move it to Trash, instead of actually deleting it off the server, and let "someone else" take care of emptying the Trash.07:50
rainemakExTechOp, that's a good point07:50
rainemakI'll certainly note a task / story about this07:51
ExTechOpI'd prefer to have things like this selectable.07:51
direc85[m]Some Android applications use sliding the item to left, which reveals the delete action underneath. That's been unintuitive to say the least...07:51
abrbut still vulnerable to you never knowing that you received the email at all. maybe it needs to leave the notif up saying that there was an email but it's deleted until that is manually dismissed07:51
direc85[m]ExTechOp: I always delete to trash first07:51
abrbut that kind of negates the option to delete it from notif in the first place because it's still there07:52
rainemakwe have topic still and usual PR discussion and general... let's continue brainstorming this in the general topic07:53
rainemak#topic Ruby dropped from repos (2mins -- asked by rubdos)07:53
*** sailbot changes topic to "Ruby dropped from repos (2mins -- asked by rubdos) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:53
rainemak#info <rubdos> The changelog of 1 mentioned the removal of Ruby from the07:53
rainemak#info <rubdos> SailfishOS repositories. I’m probably the only one using it (the07:53
rainemak#info <rubdos> university restaurant menu gets pushed to my Pebble over DBUS with07:53
rainemak#info <rubdos> that script), but I’d love to know the reasoning behind this.07:53
rainemak#info <Jolla> We do not have anything requiring Ruby in the stack anymore. For a07:53
rainemak#info <Jolla> long time, it was only a build requirement for some component, but07:53
rainemak#info <Jolla> as that is no longer the case, we decided to drop Ruby to cut down07:53
rainemak#info <Jolla> the maintenance burden, build cycles, etc.07:53
direc85[m]Perhaps Ruby could be added to Chum, if a volunteer shows up?07:55
direc85[m]Assuming the package sources are available.07:55
rubdos[m]That's totally fine and expected. I'll just rewritemy script.07:55
rainemaklet's move on... let's consider chum07:56
dcalisteruby is still available at
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)07:56
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:56
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?07:56
rainemakAs there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.07:56
rubdos[m]Sorry Im on mobile atm and my touchscreen is very messed up. I really need that IV image :p07:56
dcalisteDo you plan, Jolla, to keep it there, so it can be updated by community efforts ?07:56
abrooh community maintained repos in github/sfos :D07:57
direc85[m]Or fork/donate it to
rubdos[m]abr: As long as they don't do that to Rust;)07:57
rainemakdcaliste, why not. It can be there in
abrprobably best to fork though I dare say07:57
abri don't think rust will be going anywhere. gecko needs it and gstreamer probably will soon.07:58
rainemakabr, gstreamer already needs it07:58
rainemakthis is already general07:58
rainemakso let's make it so07:58
rainemak#topic General discussion (5 min)07:58
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"07:58
abryep. though the component requiring it isn't very important, but the dep is already there!07:59
rubdos[m]Yeh, just kidding honestly. Ill leave for now. Texting on the bus is hard07:59
rainemakabr, I'm only talking about the dep07:59
rainemakI guess that's it for today!08:00
rainemaklet's schedule still next meeting...08:00
rainemakdelete events view action thinking could actually go to forum as well08:01
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (2 mins)08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (2 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024)"08:01
rainemakProposing Thursday 13th June at 07:00am UTC08:01
rainemakVery good discussion once again! Thank you all!08:01
ExTechOpSounds good.08:01
direc85[m]Works for me!08:02
rainemakthat's it then08:02
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 13th June 2024 at 07:00am UTC: 2024-06-13T0700Z08:02
dcalisteThank you for the meeting.08:02
sailbotMeeting ended Thu May 30 08:02:54 2024 UTC.08:02
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 16th May 2024 at 07:00am UTC: 2024-05-16T0700Z"08:02
direc85[m]Thank you all! Great discussion once again!08:02
ExTechOpThank you everyone!08:03
flypig_Thanks all!08:03
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 13th June 2024 at 07:00am UTC: 2024-06-13T0700Z"08:03

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