Tuesday, 2013-03-05

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niqttoday all mer channel are silent, what's happen?08:50
Nicd-all hard at work?08:51
iekkujolla having iteration planning :P08:52
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lpotteralways hard at work. even when sleeping09:09
* cybette often dream about work09:09
cybettewhich is not very productive actually, since the work that gets done in dreams doesn't get translated to real life09:10
iekkucybette, i have been wondering if i just take laptop to bed and actually start working while sleeping09:10
cybetteiekku: you're not alone :P09:10
iekkucybette, that's not a surprise :P09:12
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ZFoxWhat's the status on Sailfish launch wise?10:30
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iekkuZFox, jolla will inform later when the first product launch is done11:57
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ZFoxiekku: so no public schedule yet?12:33
* ZFox wonders who so closed for an open project pre-launch?12:33
ZFoxwhy *12:33
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Stskeepswe are already publishing a lot in code in mer and nemo projects12:34
ZFoxyes as upstream and precompiled sdk.12:34
ZFoxto upstream *12:34
ZFoxbut there is no image that one could download and start flashing to their phones but rather only what is upstream and manually compiling  everything cross platform.12:36
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* ZFox is pro-jolla sorry if i seem to be against any oh the worl. i love what i can see.12:37
dm8tbrthe closest you can get currently is nemomobile12:38
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tj____i guess by not providing pre-alpha-quality flashable firmwares is a neat way to keep down the number of people crying for support and blogging how terrible that jolla thing is..12:38
dm8tbrif you have nemo running well on your hardware, then adding the sailfish bits should be easy12:38
ZFoxdm8tbr: are the core projects i.e the ui exportable between different linux oss such as alarm?12:39
dm8tbrsorry, but I don't get that?12:40
ZFox(just compiling from source) i mean.. should there be any conflict with such a cutting edge distro?12:40
dm8tbrbuilding mer/nemo is done using OBS.12:41
ZFoxkernel specific (modules etc)? xorg being used?12:41
dm8tbrgetting the hardware adaptation compiled can be done on COBS if it doesn't contain proprietary bits12:41
* ZFox rathers less accronmyns12:42
ZFox=) *12:42
ZFoxoh another thing.. jolla/sailfish has no intentions on supporting a legacy device like the N900?12:43
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* ZFox is on his N900 just now, sure would like moar recent things. :P12:43
dm8tbrnemo works on the n90012:44
ZFoxalarm for N900 not quite stable or i'd be using curses for everything haha12:44
ZFoxdm8tbr: i know, but i was asking for jolla/sailfish.. i have read somewhere that there will not be such support for the legacy device.12:45
dm8tbrthere can't be official support for legal reasons12:45
covoxZFox: it's too much of a minefield12:45
ZFoxlegal reasons = screw nokia. :(12:46
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covoxZFox: they're already doing a brilliant job of that themselves12:46
* ZFox wonders how everything would have gone if nokia didn't ditch maemo/meego? jolla wouldn't have formed.. would our qt enviroment for mobiles be slimmer faster and more optimized or way behind what has been done with jolla being seperate from nokia.12:47
covoxprobably samsung would have had more of a run for their money12:48
ZFoxbut wih more and more power in less and cheaper devices most don't care for such.12:48
ZFox(but still should)12:49
covoxthese are really exciting times for mobile12:49
ZFox2013 + jolla = yay still waiting D:12:49
* ZFox wants beta sailfish on his N900 or a decent computer so the sdk doesn't lagg.12:50
covoxI wonder what'll happen first, google snapping or samsung going mad with power12:50
ZFoxgoogle snapping with? samsung doing what with their overlord power?12:51
covoxwell the word on the street is that google isn't pleased that samsung is the only android licensee at the table eating all the pie12:51
* ZFox wonders how elementry os exists still... "lets look like mac osx" *gets nothing from apple in complaint* O.o12:52
ZFoxnice way to put it12:52
* ZFox has a feeling that samsung will/has forked android in such a way that they eill end p with apps that only work on samsung devices.12:53
ZFoxare there any non-qml ways for making an app? i.e. with a language like haskell and just pure code?12:55
covoxthere's OpenGL ES12:55
ZFoxwell.. non cpp qml*12:55
ZFoxso many acronyms!!12:56
covoxsubset that works on mobile12:56
ZFoxi see12:57
covoxthat way you get full control of the graphics hardware12:57
covoxof course, there's no widgets, so you've got to write everything from scratch12:58
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ZFoxyea, fun fun fun. :)12:58
covoxand you might want to use something like SDL or even QtOpenGL to manage the context12:59
ZFoxis an app's visual requirement just a qt?12:59
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ZFoxi mean.. like standard qt apps, not too much of a subset?13:00
ZFoxgood morning world13:00
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* ZFox thinking about qt bindings for haskell and if it would be easy and clean to write apps for sailfish in haskell.13:01
* ZFox would expect so.13:01
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covox"easy" is an interesting word to describe haskell13:03
ZFoxcovox: you not that familliar with the language?13:04
covoxI had to learn it for a class 7 years ago13:04
ZFoxsure not the easiest but personally a much preferred language for much.13:04
covoxseemed like it was geared to do list comprehension type activities and not a lot else13:04
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covoxlots of recursion, lots of joining things together13:05
ZFoxtype set so strongly that only errors you get are at compile time and io time where some resource is unaviable or fails (assuming you don't deal with the errors correctly.13:05
ZFoxit's a functional language.13:06
ZFoxavoid id13:06
covoxyes, I know :P13:06
ZFoxio *13:06
covoxI have, for 7 years13:06
covoxfor my messy functional programming needs I have python ;)13:06
* ZFox made a random token generator that ran randomrio for every byte to build the end string.... until i found showIntAtBase!! just got one integer and quite large and i was so thankful. :D13:08
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ZFoxfirst method made me rage :P discover Numeric and party!13:08
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* ZFox personally hates python ;)13:09
ZFoxdef let : () ??13:09
ZFoxdef vs let, always made me curious to what could be the true difference?13:10
ZFoxdef for a function... why not let? logic :(13:10
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covoxnot a fan of OOP?13:12
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ZFoxobject orientated? you know of modules in haskell? you know just import them like every other module. import qualified as L and you have L.functions :)13:13
ZFoxor types or anything that you import13:14
ZFoxdata types and records/structures are <313:14
ZFoxbut generally i dislike a.b.c.d.e.f()13:15
covoxactually no, the unit was a compsci 101 thing, so the haskell learning stopped at chaining 900 things together to parse a shopping list13:15
ZFoxparsec, use it!13:16
ZFoxdo not use happy!13:16
covox:P let's just say it didn't teach us anything that stuck13:17
ZFoxso you never got the hang of haskell?13:17
covoxI think it was just to weed out the poseurs13:17
* ZFox loves using haskell for cryptography. so clean code!13:18
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covoxyeah that sounds very formulaic13:18
ZFoxfirst haskell program -> irc bot, guessing game. give it 3 numbers. min max and your guess13:19
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ZFoxoh and a mde. easy vs med vs hard (hard you get no feedback just yes/no, med you got higher or lower; easy you got your current range shown)13:21
ZFoxmode *13:21
ZFoxcovox: ^13:21
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* ZFox should hit the hay. G'Night world, covox learn fore haskell! :D13:26
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khertan_How can i detect from code that i'm running on a sailfishos and not on nemomobile13:44
khertan_ie : sailfish qt components available13:44
valdur55except importerror.13:46
khertan_roh ...13:46
khertan_there is no importerror in qml13:46
khertan_so it s involve creating the DeclarativeView13:47
khertan_wait that errors are raised13:47
khertan_could delay 1 or 2s the launch of an apps13:47
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valdur55Ok. Maybe there is some ENV vars13:54
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khertan__uh ?14:00
Stskeepsignore, just a bad dependency :)14:00
khertan__oh my god no, not aegis ! not in sailfish !14:00
Stskeepswe have code from harmattan remember14:00
khertan__thx Stskeeps14:00
Stskeepswe'll have something much worse14:00
khertan__gniagnia ...14:01
khertan__Stskeeps, android vm .... </troll>14:01
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khertan__Stskeeps, can i ask you what did you think about the mir canonical project ?14:09
fk_lxkhertan__: btw. do you know that Canonical employees are also on this channel :-) ?14:11
khertan__fk_lx, no ... but a point of view is always negativ14:11
khertan__fk_lx, they could have reason to do it14:11
khertan__and if i remember Stskeeps play a lot with wayland14:11
khertan__so instead of hearing complain of random people which never used wayland on forums14:12
khertan__but thx for the info about canonical people being also on this chan :)14:13
khertan__s/is always/is not always14:13
khertan__:p the lapsus14:13
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crevetoryeah it also took me very little time to port bikster to sailfishos15:00
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khertan__crevetor, if you start from a harmattan apps it s trivial15:20
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crevetorkhertan__: that was the case15:27
crevetorWhat I also like is that all the little hacks I had to use in some places for my harmattan app are gone :)15:28
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khertan__crevetor, oh yes15:28
khertan__same for me15:28
khertan__lots of workarround for harmattan isn't needed anymore15:28
khertan__i like also some details, like BackgroundItem15:29
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gabriel9|workwho is from canonical?16:06
gabriel9|workmaybe there is also someone from bb :D16:07
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khertan__crevetor, i'm just impatient to see the components on one of my devices, as i mainly devel in train and my netbook can't run the vms16:23
khertan__too few memory16:24
khertan__(and cpu power ...)16:24
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crevetorkhertan__: from where to where ? Paris/Lille ?18:13
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suosaaskiDoes sailfish use xorg or what?19:28
lbt_it uses "what"19:32
* Sage ponders what "or what" is19:32
Sagesuosaaski: xorg yes ;)19:32
suosaaski"...or something else"19:33
lbt_Wayland was seriously considered but not sufficiently ready at our decision point19:34
Stskeepswe use x11 and qt419:34
lbt_Same goes for Qt519:34
Stskeepsand that wasn't the reason for not wayland :P19:34
Stskeepsjust that our stack wasn't ready19:34
lbt_"Wayland was seriously considered"19:35
lbt_there you go19:35
lbt_Stskeeps: don't you have some sb2 patches to OBS to upstream ?19:38
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Stskeepsfixing evil keyboards19:45
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achipasoo... is qtwebkit in or out when it comes to the sailfish sdk release?21:16
lbt_go to Control Centre, pick target, manage21:17
lbt_then install qtwebkit-devel21:17
achipaumm.. control centre? I just got the SDK and was snooping around the sysroot/target21:19
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achipaaha! control centre=the thing in the special (thirty-third) QtCreator build I have :)21:20
Stskeepsachipa: we decided that mosaic-devel is all everybody needs, including max 640kb ram21:21
achipaStskeeps: yes, yes, just not used to dynamic sysroots. Makes you wonder what is actually present on the device21:22
achipaStill, I maintain that QtCreator should just give up on even trying to have multiple targets. Per-target .user file and that's it, it's messy enough as it is.21:23
lbt_if we told you it'd spoik the surprise!21:23
lbt_:) ... the kit thing makes sense21:24
achipayikes, I tink I taw meegotouchhh...21:25
Stskeepsthat's gone by now21:25
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lbt_also I'm trying to avoid over-complicating the Mer plugin by keeping things in the Control centre21:25
Stskeepsdon't have a heart attack when you see aegis, either21:25
khertanStskeeps, :)21:25
achipalbt_: that's cool, it's just that I don't know the name of the package I want, and it's unclear how I search/look for stuff21:26
achipa(well, okay, qtwebkit I knew, but now I'm trying to remember mobility...)21:26
lbt_achipa: it's on my todo21:26
lbt_if you're any good at ruby/jscript.....21:27
lbt_patches welcome!21:27
achipayes, yes :) just trying to familiarize myself for now (what else to to when waiting for a flight to LHR, right?)21:28
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achipasoooo #2 what's the name of the mobility-devel? (getting late apparently and my eyes are betraying me)21:31
Stskeepsqtmobility-devel or qt-mobility-devel21:31
achipaBTW what's the sailfishos qmake/ifdef scope? (I know, there must be a FAQ, but my bandwidth is horrible)21:31
ajalkaneI'm trying to build aegis to get some security to sailfish... but running into some weird problems. Anyone willing to provide some pointers?21:32
achipayes, qt-mobility-devel it is...21:32
ajalkaneOk just kidding...21:32
achipaokay, total noob mode... the emulator started, but qtcreator apparently doesn't connect to it?21:36
lbt_achipa: check the known issues21:40
lbt_there's a few hints21:40
achipalbt_: umm, no, doesn't quite address this21:44
achipaif I do a test device it also times out, so wrong IP/port/something21:44
achipaooor, the FAQ is saying something I misinterpreted21:44
lbt_there are 2 VMs? yes21:45
achipaeverything's running21:46
achipabut the ssh connect is borked somehow21:46
achipait even does a funny "Agent admitted failure to sign using the key." if I try to ssh in manually as per the FAQ21:47
lbt_ah - so the AUTH issue21:47
achipaadmit nothing, deny everything!21:48
achipaany easy fix? (or FAQ reloaded? :)21:51
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Morpog_MobileKnown issues page21:53
achipa SSH_AUTH_SOCK=21:54
achipayay, I guess21:55
achipaa precarious situation, when you can type 3-4 lines before a web page comes in...21:55
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lbt_achipa: ?22:04
lbt_which web page?22:04
achipalbt_: faq, known issues et al (crappy mobile connection, not on your side)22:04
achipathough still can't quite see what the sailfish qmake scope is...22:04
achipa(even after digesting your first app ;) )22:05
lbt_yeah - I need to review the whole build side22:05
Stskeepswe don't have one, at the moment, i think22:05
Stskeepswe're pretty bog standard linux qt for gles2 so22:05
achipathat's cool, but how do I know I'm building for sailfish and not, Ubuntu or whatnot?22:06
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achipa(kinda would be nice to know if I want to use silica)22:07
lbt_is it blue?22:07
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lbt_seriously though - we've been asked before22:07
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lbt_there'll be an answer by beta release (maybe before)22:08
achipaIf this is another "harmattan is linux so we don't need an ifdef/scope", I'm not going to be happy :)22:08
Stskeepsi vote we see a job application from achipa so he can stop us from things like that22:08
lbt_so what do you want?22:08
achipathe point is some people might have this wild idea of sharing code/projects across multiple Qt-capable mobile platforms22:09
lbt_achipa: suggestions or patches on the mailing list will be seriously useful22:09
achipaand yes, even not counting the dead ones, still plenty left and more coming22:10
achipaBB10 got away with qnx{} but your case is not that easy22:10
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achipastill, there is a precedent/mechanism that should work22:10
achipamkspecs, qplatformdefs.h and such22:12
achipaI mean, if it's ok to have ~/SailfishOS/mersdk/targets/SailfishOS-i486-x86/usr/share/qt4/mkspecs/linux-g++-maemo/qmake.conf... :)22:13
achipafor now, I will use ~/SailfishOS/mersdk/targets/SailfishOS-i486-x86/usr/share/qt4/mkspecs/features/sailfishsilicabackground.prf but as said, I do expect a better way of knowing I'm running on something sailfishy22:15
ajalkaneAgreed... this is really important for cross-platform apps22:17
ajalkaneAnd all the better if it's somewhere documented so that we all don't have to be achipa-level-gurus to know how to do it :)22:18
achipawell, just take a look at how QtInfo does it and it will be immediately clear ;)22:18
achipa(forward looking statement, not sure if I can do a git push from here)22:19
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achipain a worst case, just do what meeg^H^H^H^HHarmattan did, a la http://wiki.meego.com/Porting_Fremantle_Applications_to_Harmattan#Harmattan_scope22:21
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Morpog_MobileAchivement unlocked: run your own #SailfishOS ambiance in the #SDK :) http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEoA0C1CIAAkRYu.png22:25
Morpog_MobileFrom @sfietkonstantin22:26
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Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: :P22:33
Sfiet_Konstantinwill try to code an app to perform that quickly22:33
Sfiet_Konstantinbut not easy, since it involves root :(22:33
Morpog_MobileMaybe you can get a Sailor to help or offer an easier way?22:35
Sfiet_Konstantinnah, actually why should we ask for sailors when it is something that is already done22:37
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause ambiance is implemented ...22:37
Sfiet_Konstantinjust not in the SDK22:37
Morpog_MobileCan't wait for it ;-)22:42
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