Thursday, 2013-03-21

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GentSirEvening Gentlemen00:53
GentSirchriadam, you in Australia?00:56
GentSirI'll admit, I'm a little intimidated here, nobody of my age and limited experience00:58
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chriadamGentSir: we all start somewhere.  the best thing to do to get experience, is to start experimenting :-)01:10
chriadamgrab the SDK and start writing an application01:10
chriadamif you have any troubles / questions, just ask01:10
GentSirchriadam, I already have and I'm working on a port of something I designed as a desktop application01:11
GentSirI've just never touched Qt/QML before, though I have a little experience with C01:11
lpotterthe qt examples are a great way to get acquainted with qml01:23
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lpotterand its much better than c01:26
GentSirlpotter, I've been looking at the Sailfish Silica page, reading the code in the examples provided with the SDK carefully, and looking at tutorials on QML. I also installed the regular version of Qt Creator so I can try stuff without having to start virtualbox or worry about bugs in the SDK01:44
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GentSirThe examples I've seen for the Sailfish SDK are pretty much entirely just UI code, does anybody have any examples or applications with a fair amount of separated application logic as well?02:05
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lpotteryoucan look at the qt examples for that. and there are tutorials for that in the qt docs02:12
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GentSirlpotter, I've been on . Is it good, or are there better resources I should be looking at that are more focused on mobile development?02:14
lpotterqt-project would be the place02:15
GentSirThank you. This is my first foray into Qt/QML. My mobile experience is exclusively with Android02:17
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chriadamGentSir: take a look at for an example of a minesweeper app written in QML02:30
chriadamI don't know how "exemplary" the code is, I haven't looked at it myself02:30
chriadambut it'll give you an idea02:30
GentSirchriadam, thanks for the example mate02:32
GentSirIt would build for me but displayed as an empty screen with nothing, I'm trying this now: git://
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GentSirsitu, evening02:53
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GentSirniqt, morning mate08:25
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Morpog_PCGentSir, maybe you wanna take this course?
Morpog_PCmeh, sounds too novice08:58
GentSirMorpog_PC, I'm not a *complete* novice08:59
Morpog_PCthats why I corrected me ;)09:00
GentSirI know the basics of programming and design, I'm just young and have never touched Qt/QML before09:00
GentSirI've been studying the examples provided with the SDK, especially the silica design stuff. Going through it item-by-item both on the emulator and in the code to see what everything does09:01
GentSirAlso had my browser open to one page or another on since I installed the SDK09:01
GentSirI'm making progress, I've never never done much mobile or GUI stuff09:01
GentSir*just never09:01
Morpog_PCMaybe get some open source harmattan project and try to port? Yiu could stidy application code in it09:02
Morpog_PCYou could study*09:02
GentSirMorpog_PC, I've got this open in Qt Creator and I've been reading through the code:
Morpog_PClloks like a symbian example09:05
Morpog_PCeasier would be an harmattan one09:05
GentSirYeah, I'm looking through the github link in that forum thread and I'll find something  I find interesting to pore through09:06
GentSirthank you09:06
GentSirI'm starting a Computer Sciences degree this fall, and I've been programming in various languages since I was 16. But never really challenged myself09:09
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SfietKonstantinhello everybody10:52
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GentSirSfietKonstantin, morning10:53
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GentSirHow's the Eurozone on this lovely day?10:57
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niwebercold and snowing11:16
niwebernice springday...11:16
GentSirniweber, I've been living in Florida for around three months now, I actually miss the cold11:17
niweberGentSir: so you mentioned11:19
* niweber still would like some spring11:19
GentSirniweber, sorry, memory isn't great right now, sick and loaded on meds11:19
GentSirHow I manage to get the flu in 30 degree weather I do not know11:20
niweberbetter go to bed then11:21
GentSirI've slept plenty, just have to ride it out11:22
GentSirPlus, i've really been working on learning Qt/QML. I hate being lazy11:23
Nicd-I got my first fever in years when I went to Florida for two weeks11:23
Sfiet_Konstantinwell, for me it was to Barcelona for MWC :P11:25
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GentSirNicd-, I honestly don't like Florida very much11:26
blackishgreetings everyone11:30
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blackishi have a noob question about sdk. i've installed fresh new shiny sdk and now trying to port one of my old meego app to it. but it seems to miss openssl headers. i've tried to copy openssl folder to sailfish target but it didn't help. quick googling didn't help either.11:32
blackishwhat am i doing wrong?11:33
Sfiet_Konstantinblackish: better use the SDK control panel11:35
Sfiet_Konstantinclick on the sailfish icon on the left11:35
Sfiet_Konstantinthen click on manage for the SailfishOS-i486 target11:36
Sfiet_Konstantinand search if there is openssl dev things11:36
Sfiet_Konstantininstall it, and it should be ok11:36
blackishi missed this button. silly me. thanks11:36
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Yaniel... now I want CalDAV support in the default calendar app even more :312:43
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Yaniel(uni has a caldav feed of events & schedule now)12:44
GentSirYaniel, this is just speculation, but is there isn't native support you could always pull the feed and convert it to a format that's natively support12:50
GentSirIf you have a private server or vps you can use, it could be almost transparent12:50
YanielI used to download my schedule as an xml file and run it through an app that converted it to vcs, then import to ical and sync to my phone with isync12:51
Yanielnow I can skip everything up to the sync12:51
GentSirYaniel, don't know if it fits your use case, but a mate of my swears by ownCloud for device integration:
YanielI've taken a quick look at that12:59
Yanielit's a bit too massive for my private use though :D12:59
Yaniel+ I doubt it is a good idea to run that on a raspberry pi12:59
Yanielstill planning to try set up radicale13:00
GentSirYaniel, I know how you feel. Sometimes we have to make sacrifices to stick to FOSS software13:01
GentSirRadicale does look like a good solution, I'd assume the native calendar app will have WebDAV support13:02
YanielI do hope so13:03
GentSirand if not, we're always free to implement it ourselves13:03
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GentSirSailfish may still be in its infancy, but it's a joy to work with after Android13:04
Yanielquite a psychic michelangelo for an infant13:06
GentSirYaniel, it IS based off the best operating system core ever made. I've been using Linux as my primary OS since I was 14, I felt right at home delving into the command line for the emulator13:09
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: don't say that to all the iOS / Android devs13:09
Sfiet_Konstantinthey will cry if you separate them from their beloved XCode, or eclipse and their shiny macs13:09
YanielGentSir: I've "taken a tour" through the emulator & sdk VMs too :)13:09
Yanielvia ssh ofc13:10
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, when I was going to school at Northwood I had to step in and clean up the mess of an app the seniors made for the auto show week. I despise working with Android13:10
GentSirYaniel, "taken a tour"? Did I miss a reference there?13:11
Yanielplaying on the command line13:11
GentSirYaniel, I did for quite awhile as well. Been learning Qt/QML, it's starting to make sense to me13:12
Yanielknowing HTML and JS helps a lot on the QML side13:13
GentSirI know the basics of HTML, have never touched JS13:13
GentSirBut I'm only nineteen, I pick up new stuff quickly13:13
Yanielsame here :D13:14
GentSirI feel a little intimidated in here, all the old-guard ex nokia guys13:14
Yanielnot sure if I can call myself that though :D13:15
mikhasI met a bunch of lost souls yesterday who thought HTML5 is the futgure13:17
Yanielit is part of the future13:19
Yanielbut by far not everything13:19
GentSirWas it said by the same brogrammers that code in Ruby and sip $10 lattes?13:20
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: so, why are these old nokia guys intimidating ? :D13:20
Sfiet_Konstantinthey are nice :)13:20
YanielSfiet_Konstantin: they can tell how you fscked up before you get to ask? :D13:21
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, they've all been perfectly polite and helpful the novices such as myself. Everything I can do just feels trivial compared to their decades of experience.13:22
GentSirI second Yaniel on that as well13:22
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: haha13:22
Sfiet_Konstantinthat's really true13:22
Sfiet_Konstantinhowever the best way to learn is to ask, and they know that13:22
Yanieljust like ##OpenGL13:22
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin: Yes, and young blood is important to every product13:23
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: indeed13:23
Sfiet_Konstantinyoung guys are flexible13:23
Sfiet_Konstantinand have thrist of knowledge13:23
GentSirand we're naive enough to believe that Sailfish can actually take off :)13:24
YanielI think that can be said of all sailors regardless of age13:25
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: lol, and you don't need to be naive for that13:25
Sfiet_KonstantinSailfish will get it's niche13:25
GentSirYes, Jolla is small enough that even modest sales will keep it going13:25
Sfiet_Konstantinit will not be like iOS or android, but it has enough strength to seduce13:25
GentSirI was going to say "even modest sails will keep it afloat", but sometimes puns are lost on non-native speakers :)13:26
GentSirThe interface isn't perfect, but there's plenty of time to improve. Hopefully it's released on good hardware in addition to the el cheapo ZTE and other chinese bargain gear13:29
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I'm curious about what you want to improve :)13:34
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I've gotten very used to having a status bar at top with the time/signal info. But I guess the swipe transparency solves that issue for the most part.13:35
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: with the iconia tab, I have never experienced troubles in checking battery, clock with the transparency push13:36
Sfiet_Konstantinon windows phone neither13:36
Sfiet_Konstantinso that's definitely not a trouble13:36
GentSirHonestly, I'm sure the final release will be incredibly fluid and comfortable to use13:36
GentSirI'm especially happy the transparency push works from both sides, I have trouble with many touch gestures used in Android because I'm left handed13:37
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Yanielas someone criticized it, pushing the app to the side should actually move the app instead of just fading13:38
GentSirYaniel, but then to see the entire cover view you'd have to move it all the way, and then the app would go into its background state. The transparency works fine.13:39
Yanielum, s/instead/in addition to/13:40
GentSirI get you now. I don't see any reason that can't be implemented though13:40
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Sfiet_KonstantinYaniel: it was me who blogged about that issue (moving window instead of fading)13:42
Sfiet_Konstantinwell, I have to say that for using the iconia, it bothers me a bit less :D13:43
GentSirYeah, I'm sure the little "issues" will be less pronounced using it on actual hardware.13:45
Sfiet_Konstantinthe last time I have seen so lovely UI was with the N913:46
Sfiet_Konstantina radical departure13:47
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Sfiet_Konstantinright now, all others UI are not innovating much13:47
Sfiet_Konstantineven BB1013:47
Sfiet_Konstantinrip of of N913:47
Sfiet_Konstantinmaybe ubuntu13:47
Sfiet_Konstantinbut I did not find it nice13:47
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, look closely at the Ubuntu mobile UI and designing for it, it's a mess13:48
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well, I think I looked at it close enough13:48
Sfiet_KonstantinI went to MWC for that13:49
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, okay, fair enough13:49
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GentSirI just don't like the approach desktop ubuntu is taking, I'm scared to have their OS on something I count on to be stable13:50
mikhasSfiet_Konstantin, how did you like the Ubuntu Touch demos?13:54
mikhasactually, young blood is required for solving impossible-to-solve problems13:55
mikhasthey have the advantage of not knowing it's impossible13:56
Sfiet_Konstantinmikhas: no13:56
Sfiet_KonstantinI won't say: "a bit", "some good ideas" etc.13:56
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Sfiet_Konstantinfor me it is np13:56
GentSirmikhas, I like to say that I don't have any bad habits ingrained in me yet13:56
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: don't be too optimistic about that :D13:57
Sfiet_Konstantinyou already have, but you don't know :D13:57
GentSirAside from rampant abuse of mountain dew?13:59
GentSirAt least I don't build cloud apps in Ruby on Rails with node.js and a NoSQL database to provide dynamic solutions14:02
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: why not14:04
Sfiet_Konstantinthat's a good thing to do :P14:04
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I hope you realize that was sarcasm!14:04
GentSirThat sentence made my head hurt14:04
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I do, and it was sarcasm as well :D14:04
Sfiet_KonstantinI know that kind of talk14:04
GentSirUsually the person talking like that is also holding a brand new macbook14:04
GentSirNothing against macbooks, I love the hardware and I'm using one right now14:05
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: depends14:05
Sfiet_Konstantinit is suited for some activitiew14:06
Sfiet_Konstantinmy personnal favourite are thinkpads14:06
Sfiet_Konstantinbut macbooks aren't that bad14:06
Sfiet_Konstantinjust very expensive14:06
GentSirMine is a 2008 4, 1 model14:06
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GentSirIt's getting a little old, will need to be replaced fairly soon. I doubt I'd buy a newer one though, too much of a pain to get Linux on them14:06
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: yeah, for linux, it is better to get the good old PCs14:07
Sfiet_Konstantinbut now the "ultrabooks" are pretty beautiful14:07
Sfiet_Konstantineven if my good old thinkpad X200 is still my favourite14:07
Sfiet_Konstantin(a bit like my companion cube, I will never throw it into an emergency intelligence incinerator)14:08
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GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I'm building a nice development desktop in the next few months. Something with a nice processor and globs of RAM. Two or three  monitors, nice keyboard and mouse. I'll probably keep using my Macbook until it dies14:08
GentSirI really don't need a more powerful laptop14:08
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: haha, that's nice14:09
Sfiet_KonstantinI cannot have a desktop though, will move often these years :(14:09
GentSirAs soon as I get back to University :/14:09
GentSirI had to leave where I was attending in Michigan for various personal reasons14:09
GentSirSo I'm sitting on my lazy butt until I head back to a school down here this fall14:10
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: no, you are not14:10
Sfiet_Konstantinyou are learning QML14:10
GentSirGood point14:11
Sfiet_Konstantinand how to be a super Sailfish hacker14:11
Sfiet_Konstantingo on14:11
Sfiet_Konstantinthe world needs more super sailfish hackers14:11
GentSirBeing lazy does not appeal to me14:11
GentSirBut I'm having a really hard time getting accepted into a University with a good Computer Sciences department. I skimped on my grades in high school to go to a business vocational school and get good hands on experience.14:12
GentSirMy standardized test scores, resume, work experience, essay, they don't mean anything if my application doesn't make it past the automated GPA filter.14:14
GentSirSorry for venting, I'm still sick14:14
mikhasgo study in Europe ;-)14:25
mikhaslots of good CompSci universities here14:25
GentSirI have a really good friend that lives in germany, and she told me that classes there are primarily taught in german14:30
GentSirI also get free college here in the states because I'm legally disabled14:31
GentSirmikhas, I'm gassing subsidized University in most of Europe is for citizens only?14:31
GentSirSorry, I'm just not familiar with how it works14:32
mikhasand it really depends on the country/science whether majority of course will be English or not14:32
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well universities here in CH are pretty good, and often (or always in english)14:33
mikhasyou can bet on anything MBA related being purely English14:33
Sfiet_Konstantinwhereas in fr, it is mostly fr14:33
mikhasETH Zurich comes to mind for CompSci14:33
GentSirmikhas, aren't you German? What's the language situation like there?14:33
Sfiet_Konstantinmikhas: or EPF Lausanne ?14:33
Sfiet_Konstantinboth are good14:33
mikhasWe expect you to speak German of course, but if you live in bigger cities you'll get along just fine with English. Even when trying to open a bank account (you just have to make appointments in advance more often so they get you a skilled enough speaker).14:34
GentSirmikhas, I understand it's important to learn the language and culture of a country you want to dwell in. It's just not something that can be done overnight14:35
mikhasI agree with that.14:35
GentSirIf you drive a couple hours south of where I live you can walk through many neighborhoods and hear nothing but Spanish14:36
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: or what about going to northern countries14:36
GentSirIt drives me crazy when people wont' learn English here14:36
mikhasTypical weekend in Berlin.14:36
Sfiet_Konstantinthey are very english-friendly14:36
mikhasNothing but Spaniards on the streets ;-)14:36
mikhas(they take cheap flights to Berlin for party weekends)14:37
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I've always wanted to go to Iceland, but it's not the greatest educational destination14:37
mikhaslet me see …14:37
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: i see14:37
mikhasif I drive a couple hours north they all speak Danish14:37
mikhasa couple hours west and it's all French14:38
mikhas2 hours to the East and it's Polish!14:38
mikhas1 hour to the south and I am completely lost14:38
mikhasI dont even know what language that's supposed to be14:38
GentSirI can drive for at least a week and English will do me just fine14:38
GentSirNo joke14:38
Yanielmikhas: boarisch?14:38
mikhasYaniel, I dont even make it that far!14:39
mikhasThere'S another foreign country between Prussia and Bavaria.14:39
Sfiet_Konstantinmikhas: :D14:39
merlin1991heh I only have to drive a few hours west, still staying in my country and don't understand a word :D14:40
GentSirWe're pretty homogenized here. Very little cultural differences for thousands of miles. It's why us americans are such buffoons.14:40
mikhasYeah well, I'd find that pretty boring.14:41
GentSirmikhas, I've never experienced anything different14:42
mikhasSo come study in Europe ;-)14:43
GentSirif I could get accepted in a decent university in Europe, get a student visa, and if there weren't any financial concerns I'd love to14:43
mikhasYou might not learn how to become rich, or how to run a startup, but it'll be fun.14:43
GentSirI also have an ostomy, but I could get my parents to ship supplies from the US14:43
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mikhasThey used to re-label German groceries for the GIs stationed in Germany, to make it look US-ish.14:45
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mikhasGerman food products*14:45
GentSirI'll look up some information on studying in Europe14:46
GentSirBut germany isn't a likely option, if it's all german language classes14:46
GentSirI can already drive a stickshift just fine, so I'm not worried about getting around14:47
YanielThe university of helsinki has an open online programming course that can get you accepted to the university14:47
Yanielbut that is in finnish14:48
GentSirThat's the issue, I'm limited to English for now :/14:48
GentSirPerfectly willing to learn another language, but it takes time14:48
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GentSirMy plan right now is to go to a lower tier school for a couple years, then figure out my transfer options after that14:49
GentSirI can learn to be a good programmer and designer no matter where I go to school, it's mostly about experience and experimentation.14:49
* merlin1991 wonders what stance the industry has on the vienna university regarding quality14:49
GentSirYaniel, Not helpful, I can't read a word of that :)14:50
mikhasIf I were to come to study to Europe, I would check for one of the smaller countries, not Germany  (and probably not southern Europe either)14:50
Yanieltoo bad, apparently even google translate is clueless :D14:50
GentSirmikhas, what countries have subsidized university available to foreign students?14:52
GentSirAs I said, I can go to pretty much any college that will accept me for free here because I'm disabled14:52
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mikhasall of them really, if you avoid UK14:52
mikhasbut UK doesn't really count as Europe, in many ways …14:52
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GentSirAt least the UK is English14:53
GentSirOnly some minor language differences to what I'm used to14:53
merlin1991the uk is as much part of europe as russia14:54
GentSirOceania has always been at war with Eurasia, I know :)14:54
GentSirBut I'll look into it14:55
GentSirGetting away from the states could be nice14:55
mikhassome say the UK lend its name for the popular 90ies game Monkey Island14:56
mikhasbut that's of course completely unconfirmed rumors14:56
GentSirWe have a different use of the term "Monkey" here14:56
GentSirIt's, of course, very offensive as well14:57
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Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: as I said, you might apply for EPFL or ETHZ14:59
Sfiet_Konstantinin Fr and Ger part of CH14:59
Sfiet_Konstantinthe courses are IIRC in english for the CS section14:59
GentSirHeck. I could even head into c15:00
GentSirNah, we don't like Canada15:01
merlin1991GentSir: half of europe doesn't like germany, people still go there to study and work ;)15:01
Sfiet_Konstantinmerlin1991: that's half true15:01
GentSirWhat, they only like one half of Germany?15:02
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GentSirOkay, that was mean15:02
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merlin1991half true, as in all of europe doesn't like germany?15:02
GentSirI'm looking at ETH right now. At least they have their website in English15:02
GentSirBoth of those are Swiss schools?15:04
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, do those schools teach in English?15:05
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Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: searching for a bachelor ? a master ?15:07
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, bachelors in CompSci15:07
GentSiror comparable15:07
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: then forget about it15:08
Sfiet_Konstantinat least in EPFL15:08
Sfiet_Konstantinit is half in fr15:08
Sfiet_KonstantinI nthought it was fully english :S15:08
GentSirOh well15:08
GentSirThis has given me a lot to think about though15:09
Sfiet_Konstantintry ethz15:09
Sfiet_Konstantinseems to be fully in english15:09
Sfiet_Konstantinalthough I'm not sure15:09
GentSirAll German:
Sfiet_Konstantinwell no :P15:10
Sfiet_Konstantinjust found that15:10
Sfiet_Konstantinhum ... they need to put some effort in that15:10
GentSirI could just go to school here for 2 years as planned, work hard to learn German15:10
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merlin1991and then give up because not even germans can do german properly ;)15:12
YanielGentSir: something like this?
Sfiet_Konstantinmerlin1991: LOL15:12
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: or come to the french side15:12
Sfiet_Konstantinit is better :P15:12
GentSirmerlin1991, Americans can't speak English properly either15:12
Yanielproperly vs understandably is a big difference15:12
merlin1991GentSir: well speaking is no problem, writing there lies problem15:13
GentSirmerlin1991, if you need some entertainment at the expense of american grammar skills then look here:
GentSirDon't get lost there15:15
GentSirI wish we were taught another language from a young age here in the US, it seems like that's the standard in most of the world.15:16
Yanielbecause english is not the main language there15:17
GentSirI understand. I've heard it's much easier to learn a second language at a young age15:17
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GentSirBut at least I can go to university for free in the states, I'll be fine15:19
niweberGentSir: in CompSci usually there are a couple of students not speaking German in the German universities, somehow they manage15:19
niweberGentSir: and usually it is ok to hand in stuff etc in English15:19
merlin1991I did that by mistake once, but they took it without a question :)15:20
GentSirniweber, then I could go to University for two years here and then transfer somewhere else, I could probably learn enough German in two years to get by15:20
GentSirHow does the subsidized education work there? That's a foreign concept to me at the University level.15:21
niweberGentSir: you have to be prepared to get some more books about the topics if you don't understand what the teachers say, but that is usually not a problem15:21
merlin1991and usually the courses have english reference literature anyways15:21
GentSirI enjoy reading anyway, and i can teach myself easily15:22
niweberGentSir: well, you simply go to the uni15:22
GentSirniweber, elaborate please15:22
niweberGentSir: you have to pay a small fee (about 100 euros)15:22
GentSirThat's nothing15:22
niweberbut that includes public transport in most cities15:22
GentSirHow hard would it be for me to get a valid drivers license in Switzerland or Germany?15:23
Yanielshould be doable15:24
GentSirUs americans love to drive, I can't give that up15:24
GentSirBut it's really subsidized for foreign students as well?15:24
merlin1991holy shit tu vienna wants 726,72€ per semester from people outside austria15:25
GentSirMost Americans can't tell the difference between Austria and Australia15:25
merlin1991gotta love it though, that the official webpage tells me I'd have to pay 380,86€ starting this semester whilst the actual system only wanted 17.50€ from me15:27
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merlin1991seems like they didn't bother to update the webpage after they decided not to collect that money15:27
GentSirmerlin1991, is that 380.86 or 380,86?15:27
niweberGentSir: in which state did you aquire your driving license?15:28
merlin1991380€ 86 cents (atm I'm confused which one is the german notation and which one the international one)15:28
GentSirUsually it's a dot/period15:29
GentSirAt least here in the us15:29
GentSirDidn't know if you mistyped and dropped a digit at the end15:29
merlin1991worst thing is, here we theoretically use 13,80 for 13€ 80 cents, and a . would mean 13thausand, but sometimes a . is used anyways15:29
GentSirAh, I wasn't aware of that15:29
merlin1991basically one never knows :D15:30
GentSirIs English your second language? Do you primarily use another language?15:30
merlin1991german is my primary language (see austria)15:31
niweberGentSir: it depends on the state whether exchanging your driving license is easy or not15:31
merlin1991and as you stated, no kangaroos live here :)15:31
GentSirniweber, on the European country or the US state my license was issued in?15:32
niweberGentSir: US state15:32
GentSirniweber, I currently have a Florida drivers license, but I'm still only a temporary resident of the state until August 28th. I can head back up to Michigan and they'll issue me a Michigan drivers license anytime before then.15:33
niweberGentSir: so, it seems with a Michigan license, you could simply exchange it into a German license15:34
niweberGentSir: with the Florida one, you would have to pass a theoretical exam15:34
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GentSirWhen my friend Aileen came to Michigan I knew they'd accept her German license15:35
GentSirAn exam isn't an issue though15:35
GentSirAt least in germany I wouldn't have to learn to drive on the other side of the road15:35
niweberGentSir: that isn't as hard as people think15:36
merlin1991oh I wouldn't say that too fast, though the theoretical exam is rather easy15:36
GentSirmerlin1991, I've taken theoretical driving exams here in the states, can't be too different15:36
GentSirI'll just have to learn the traffic laws15:37
GentSirniweber, I have driven a right hand drive car, but never driven in the left side of the road15:37
merlin1991well the test I took basically consisted of the corner cases15:37
merlin1991where in some cases plain logical thinking would tell you otherwise :D15:37
GentSirmerlin1991, we have questions that make absolutely no sense on the exam here as well15:38
GentSirMost states make it very easy to get a drivers license, but also very easy to lose it if you have repeated traffic violations or a bad at-fault crash.15:39
merlin1991hm did you take your exam in an automatic or not, because interestingly, if you do it with an automatic gearbox you're restricted to them15:39
merlin1991no idea how that applies to licenses issued by other countries though15:39
GentSirmerlin1991, here in the states they have to get a special examiner out if you want to do it on a manual, and it costs a lot extra. So I just took my test on an automatic15:39
niweberGentSir: If you'd come to Berlin for example, I would think twice about using the car though, at least as long as you live near the centre15:40
GentSirI've only owned manual cars though15:40
GentSirniweber, it's just an american thing15:40
niweberGentSir: I know, public transport is way better in germany though15:40
GentSirGetting your drivers license and first car is a rite of passage for american boys15:40
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merlin1991heh here it's a rite of passage aswell15:42
merlin1991sudenlly you have a lot less money yearly15:42
GentSirExcept with less fun cars15:42
merlin1991once you had money, then you have a car15:42
GentSironce you had a car you spent all your money on your car?15:43
GentSirI know how that feels15:43
merlin1991because you have to have it checked yearly and anything that's bad fixed15:43
merlin1991no driving around with cars made out of rust15:43
GentSirMy last car, that I sold before I came to Florida, was a 1988 Cutlass Supreme with a 454 Chevy Big Block15:43
GentSirI bought it off an uncle15:43
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merlin1991my car takes about 500€ yearly just for repairs15:44
merlin1991man we're wayyy offtopic :D15:44
GentSirIt got around 8-10 miles to the gallon. that's 4 km to a liter I believe15:45
GentSirThat's okay15:45
GentSirThe nokia old guard isn't here to complain15:45
merlin19914 km to a liter, jesus15:45
Yaniel"nokia old guard" is that something like the storm guards in skyrim?15:45
merlin1991I do 16km a liter15:45
GentSirYeah, but I topped out at 145 mph15:45
merlin1991but then again I drive a small french car, and gas is cheaper over there15:46
GentSirThat car probably weighed as much as ten of your car15:46
GentSirI used to joke that my engine was larger than a smartcar15:47
merlin1991I topped out at about 105mph :D15:47
merlin1991and yeah the car is ~800kg15:47
GentSirMy car weighed around two tons15:47
GentSirBefore that I had a little ford escort, got hit by a girl who ran a red light. Right into my driver door, spent a month in the hospital and had to have lots of back surgery15:48
GentSirSo I wanted to drive a tank once I got back on the road15:48
GentSirMaybe my next car will have an embedded navigation system running on Sailfish15:49
GentSirthere we go, back on topic15:49
merlin1991hm if someone runs right into my driver door they probably don't even have to bother bringing me to the hospital15:50
GentSirIt was very very bad15:52
GentSirI still have a lot of back pain15:52
GentSirThe girl that hit me lost her drivers license15:52
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GentSirYaniel, anything like this but at the bachelors level?
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Yanielyou might want to look at open university studies too16:06
GentSirWhat I'm thinking is two years of University here in the states, spend that time learning German, and then look into ETH or another school16:06
Yaniellooks like bachelor's degree studies are only in finnish16:11
GentSirA shame. I could look into german schools16:11
GentSirOne of my best friends lives an hour from frankfurt16:12
Yaniela good reason to go there then :)16:12
GentSirShe's actually taking a vacation here in florida in a couple weeks16:12
GentSirBut anywho16:12
Yanielwhen I had to decide where I wanted to study it boiled down to "I like that city"16:12
GentSirWhere did you study?16:13
GentSirIs Morpog_PC around?16:14
GentSirYaniel, do you know of any CompSci schools in Germany that could be good options?16:15
YanielI don't really know german schools/universities16:16
GentSirI'm pretty sure Morpog_PC is a professor at one, I'll ask him when he's around16:16
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Yanielstudying @Tampere University of Technology atm16:17
Morpog_PCGentSir: no, I'm really not a professor at one :-)16:17
Morpog_PCDidn't even study at all....16:17
GentSirI'll admit, Morpog_PC, I took a look at the name on your whois and tried to connect the dots16:18
GentSirthat sometimes isn't very useful :)16:18
Morpog_PChaha, but was a good laugh for me though ;)16:18
GentSirWell, in any case, are you familiar with german CompSci universities?16:19
GentSirI could learn German16:19
Morpog_PCsorry, no16:19
GentSiroh well16:20
mikhasFHTW Aachen has a good reputation, but best one is *probably* Munich (compsci)16:21
merlin1991hm nobody can tell me how good vienna is16:21
Morpog_PCmaybe thp4 can?16:21
Sfiet_Konstantinlool, #sailfishos is _the_ chan to prepare a travel or study in europe16:22
Sfiet_Konstantinpeople from all over europe here :D16:22
mikhasyeah well, have you seen thp's code?16:22
Morpog_PCnope :-)16:22
mikhasthat alone will make you avoid Vienna16:22
merlin1991mikhas: yeah he is the master of mad code16:23
mikhasand the accent …16:23
mikhasbut great food, cant deny that16:23
merlin1991but he's fun to work with16:23
mikhasnah, he's great guy16:23
GentSirThis is the english page, I think 3 words on the entire thing are in english:
merlin1991well he is in a position to talk about the real quality of it, but I'm interested how the industry sees it16:24
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merlin1991oh shit, they take their english seriously :D16:24
mikhasGentSir, wronng uni16:25
merlin1991at least we trump in that:
mikhashang on16:25
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GentSirSorry, not familiar with a single school there16:25
GentSirthanks mikhas16:25
mikhasI mixed up the character soup again, but I really meant "RWTH"16:26
GentSirNo worries16:26
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mikhasAachen, whilst perhaps boring in itself, is right on the border to France/Germany16:27
GentSirmikhas, it's just an entrance examination for admission?16:27
mikhasso you get exposed to different cultures very easily16:27
mikhasthat really depends on the year and uni16:27
mikhasif there are too many students, there can be16:27
mikhasSfiet_Konstantin, who needs couch surfing if there's #sailfishos ;-)16:28
Sfiet_Konstantinmikhas: ;)16:29
GentSirI meant. I have a high school diploma and a few college credits here in the states. But I doubt they can compare that easily to students coming inside germany16:29
GentSiryou guys are awesome though16:29
mikhashigh school diploma should grant admission16:29
GentSirmikhas, that's all it takes?16:29
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: in france it is also the case, but well, universities in france are not that good16:29
mikhasfor most unis in Germany? yes16:30
Sfiet_Konstantinyou can try Paris XI that is ok though16:30
mikhasmost unis in Germany also have waaaay too many students, and that can be a serious downside16:30
GentSirmikhas, wow. Schools here are way more selective. I'm having a heck of a time getting accepted into ANY university with a proper CompSci program16:30
mikhasyou are more on your own here16:31
GentSirmikhas, more on your own?16:31
mikhaswell, how to explain … if you plan a top-notch academic career, then stay in the US16:31
merlin1991heh when I started studying they didn't even have any weird limiting exams in the first semester16:32
merlin1991it was plain who wants can education :)16:32
mikhasif you want to become a well-rounded person and see different cultures while having good enough education, come to Europe16:32
thpmikhas, merlin1991: what's wrong with my code? :p16:32
Sfiet_Konstantinmikhas: +116:32
mikhasthe quality of your education really depends a lot on your own dedication16:32
mikhas(here in Europe)16:32
mikhasdont expect others to constantly tell you what to do16:33
merlin1991thp: just saying, transfer data from python -> qml via string json list to be evalueted by js inside qml? ;)16:33
GentSirmikhas, that sounds perfect16:33
mikhaswell, it'S a challenge in its own16:33
mikhasbut it allows you to grow as a person, if you understand the challenge16:33
GentSirmikhas: Here in the states, especially in public schools, you get spoon fed for your education16:33
GentSirI really enjoy learning on my own16:33
mikhasI find being 19yo being too youn to really understand all those implications, I wish someone had told me back then what it's all about ;-)16:34
GentSirI went to a business vocational school for two years during high school, and it was very much a "learn at your own pace" setup16:34
GentSirI absolutely loved it16:34
GentSirI actually taught (very basic) C and Python to some students there16:35
mikhasthp, if you have to ask that question then you're not ready for the answer yet16:36
mikhasnah just kidding … I have to admit that I do read your code for educational purpose, too16:37
GentSirCan someone provide a link to his code?16:37
GentSirIt can't be worse than mine16:37
GentSirI'm entirely self-taught16:37
thpi should put in more puns in variable names and comments so you can read it for entertainment purposes ;)16:37
merlin1991GentSir: has a lot16:37
mikhasthp, infotainement!16:38
mikhasor actually, edutainment16:38
GentSirPerl? I'm scared already16:38
GentSirDoes that mean ALL his code is write-only?16:38
mikhasyes, he renamed himself after he found the love of his life: Perl16:39
GentSirThat's beautiful16:39
mikhasnah, I dont think thp likes to write Perl at all16:39
GentSirsomebody had the bright idea when I was 15 to tell me that if I wanted to learn "database programming" I needed to learn Perl16:40
GentSirThe rest is a story I don't care to recount...16:41
GentSirmerlin1991, I think the same thing now16:41
mikhasPerl has a beautiful DBI module16:41
GentSirI wrote code exclusively in Perl for 2 years before I wised up16:41
mikhasprepared statements, parameter binding …16:41
mikhasPerl doesn't write bad code, people do.16:42
ajalkanePerl is pretty good but requires too much discipline from the coder16:42
GentSirbut I just like to rip on Perl now16:42
ajalkaneBut I like it - except the overly stupid object syntax16:42
thppython's DBI equivalent is DBAPI2
ajalkaneAt least that was the case with Perl5, haven't done anything in it since16:42
GentSirI moved to Python/C after that, dabbled a little in Android/Dalvik Java16:43
thpbut i guess most people use some ORM framework these days16:43
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mikhasif it ever becomes hip to bash SailfishOS then we know the Jolla guys did it16:43
mikhasbargh, ORM …16:43
mikhasa disease really16:43
merlin1991I still have no idea how to properly map into datagrids in C#16:44
merlin1991and I sort of plan to never find out16:44
GentSirLet's see if the app I updated for Northwood got pulled from the Play store yet...16:46
GentSirIt's not there16:46
GentSirOh it was a mess16:46
merlin1991you don't get notified if it gets pulled?16:48
GentSirmerlin1991, was done under the university account16:48
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GentSirIt was to show information on the various teams and attractions at the annual auto show16:51
GentSirand the seniors make the app every year16:51
GentSirbut they had some weird idea to populate xml files from a MySQL database that contained all the info, and they'd poll the teams beforehand to get it16:52
GentSirthey're kludged together system didn't work, and it was only compatible with API's past 15, that's ICS, which was the latest version at the time16:52
GentSirMy MIS professor asked me if I could help with it, because they were all "busy", and that was when I learned all this16:53
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GentSirThink a mix if Into to MBA and Information Sciences16:54
GentSirI did an awfully shoddy job hard coding all that info in from the surveys and getting it build and run for Android 2.3. I wish I had the code so you all could laugh at it16:54
GentSirBut it WORKED16:54
GentSirAnd that's what matters16:55
GentSirI aspire to be a better programmer for Sailfish16:58
merlin1991step 1, don't copy thp ;)17:00
GentSirHe even managed to make Python code look bad17:02
GentSirI'm looking through his repo17:02
GentSirNowhere near as bad as me in Java though17:02
thpfeel free to point out concrete issues17:05
ajalkanePython code always looks to me like something's off with it. But that's just because I like Ruby's syntax when it comes to scripting languages.17:05
GentSirthp, I was just joking17:11
GentSirajalkane, I've always heard Ruby described as a "Bro" language at Universities here17:11
GentSirNormally you sip on an expensive latte and code in it on a brand new Macbook17:12
merlin1991hm expensive latte and brand new macbook, there's a few like that @ the university here17:14
merlin1991no idea what they typo into their laptops though :)17:14
ajalkaneLol... dunno about that, but I guess it's more the Ruby on Rails types. With their newfangled Mac developing stations and what not.17:15
merlin1991the best thing so far I had was a duo of that kind of students that was all like we'll make a startup for $idea and we'll do it all in django because that's awesome and hipster17:16
merlin1991I gave them a card for the local python usergroup, but they never showed :D17:16
ajalkaneI've done some Ruby scripting but never Rails stuff. So I have no educated guess if it's good beyond looking hipster. But I like Ruby as a language.17:16
GentSirmerlin1991, that's funny17:17
GentSirRuby on Rails is the hipster stereotype here17:17
GentSirNormally they aren't typing. They sit in starbucks and dick around in iTunes, pretending that everyone around them thinks they're writing a novel or something.17:18
ajalkaneI have to admit I am interested in doing something with Ruby on Rails, just because I like Ruby17:18
merlin1991I just love how rails had that huge security problem17:19
ajalkaneYeah but you're right... it's hard admitting doing something with Ruby on Rails because you get the hipster admiration. And all I want is be geek, but my beard don't grow :(17:19
merlin1991or when github started filtering searches for the deploymentkey thingy17:19
ajalkaneI remember reading something about that Rails vulnerability and it seemed pretty bad.17:20
GentSirNah, they just want to "make it work" and they'll add security later!17:20
ajalkaneOf course when you get to the bottom of it, there's no system out there without vulnerabilities. But the Rails one, if I remember correctly, seemed a bit basic17:20
merlin1991well there was the fact that you have some private deploy key which pretty much everyone had in their source control17:21
merlin1991then there was the thing that it did map ids directly and you had to eplecitely tell it not to take user input for specific things17:22
ajalkaneOh the github one... I was thinking about some earlier exploit17:22
merlin1991(that was used on github for a funky bugreport in the future from bender)17:22
ajalkaneah the latter is the one I was thinking about17:22
GentSirWhen I ask for input, I expect ANYTHING other than what I asked for17:22
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merlin1991GentSir: well it went as far as getting input and if there was id=something in it that that got used by the database mapper17:23
merlin1991you have to tell it explecitely which mapped keys should not be taken from the user input17:23
GentSirI see. I've never used Ruby17:23
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merlin1991very handy to hijack sessionkeys, userids, anything else that was expected to be generated only17:24
merlin1991imho weird for a web framework to initally trust any user input17:26
GentSirSo, isn't Aachen right by the French border?17:27
GentSirFrench women!17:27
merlin1991I can see the appeal when the alternative are german women :D17:27
GentSirRuby on Rails just attracts programmers that don't care about security17:27
GentSirmerlin1991, we all know how promiscuous french women are:
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Stskeepsi think we're drifting a bit off topic, guys..17:28
merlin1991GentSir: we've been found17:29
GentSirmerlin1991, do you think the latte sipping Macbook natives will ever take up Sailfish?17:29
merlin1991maybe we should swap to #jollamobile ;)17:29
GentSirThe gestapo is here17:29
ajalkaneDoes Sailfish have Ruby and C++ bindings for it? :-P17:29
merlin1991tbh I heaven't seen anybody interested in sailfish at the university17:30
merlin1991but I didn't look that much17:30
GentSirI doubt they can code in C++17:30
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merlin1991actually I didn't see much of sailfish at all anywhere17:30
GentSirSo there just needs to be an active movement against ruby bindings and we're safe17:30
merlin1991ruby bindings, js frameworks and perlmadnes17:31
merlin1991but the war vs perl has begun17:31
merlin1991sailfish isn't deb based anymore --> no dpkg --> perl not that mandatory anymore :)17:32
lbtajalkane: Mer has ruby17:32
lbtin fact the SDK has a Control Centre in it - that's ruby on sinatra17:33
lbtor sinatra on ruby if you prefer17:33
ajalkaneNow all we need is bindings to Qt libs17:33
merlin1991I want pyside bindings for the nfc part of qt mobility17:34
lbtand, as with anything opensource, someone to maintain it :)17:34
GentSirIt's still all quiet on the eastern front, I think I'm the only macbook owner here17:34
merlin1991so you admit you're a hipster too?17:34
GentSirmerlin1991, it's an "antique" Macbook. From way back in 200817:35
GentSirIt runs Debian just fine, thank you very much :)17:36
merlin1991now don't tell me it runs ubuntu17:36
merlin1991ah debian, that's fine17:36
GentSirI used Ubuntu from 8.04 to 10.0417:36
GentSirThen I heard the mad ravings of Gnome Shell and Unity17:37
merlin1991I kinda would have liked it if the sdk would be able to run on qemu-kvm aswell as on virtualbox17:37
merlin1991ah yeah gnome shell and unity :D17:37
merlin1991it feels like such a waste to have the extensions in the cpu and then use the virtualbox way17:38
GentSirYes, so I fled to the sacred ground of Debian17:38
merlin1991gotta catch a flight, have fun17:38
GentSirI'm an avid openbox user now17:38
GentSirlater mate17:38
merlin1991awesome here ;)17:39
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ajalkaneI'm still on Ubuntu 10.0417:53
ajalkaneI've installed Ubuntu 12.04 for some development environments. I don't Unity shocking. Only thing I don't like is the Alt+Tab grouping of windows.17:54
ajalkane* don't find17:54
ajalkaneOk, and the top menu bar pisses me off17:54
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GentSirajalkane, I just can't stand heavy DE's17:58
ajalkaneIt runs fine for on VirtualBox so I'm not sure how heavy it is comparatively speaking. Of course I haven't used it as a daily driver so I have no extensive experience. But the little I've had does not make me afraid to upgrade. Everything else going wrong with upgrade makes me delay it :)18:00
GentSirCheck out crunchbang.org18:02
GentSirThat's what I've used since Ubuntu 10.0418:02
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ajalkaneI dunno man... I'm not a student anymore. I just want my computer to work with minimal fuss. If the DE uses a bit more CPU cycles, I'm down with it. I'm boring and old, you know.18:05
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GentSirhaha, fair enough18:07
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