Friday, 2014-05-16

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coderusm4g0g: did you resolved your context menu problem?01:55
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m4g0gcoderus: no. I think context menu doesn't change size of Column03:47
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coderushate peoples asking questions and then leaving IRC05:03
Siddecoderus: but why don't you have an alarm bell at home that wakes you up when someone highlights you. I thought everyone had that...05:07
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coderusi'm using irssi on my remote vserver05:48
coderusi can't make notifications from it :)05:48
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coderusmaybe i'll do email notifications someday :)05:49
m4g0gcoderus: Did you have anything to say about ContextMenu in Column?05:50
coderusm4g0g: you should use ComboBox, not context menu05:51
m4g0gIt's a pity that irc channel hasn't logs (05:51
m4g0gcoderus: I'l try05:51
coderusand image data you can get only with c++ helper afaik05:57
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squiddcoderus: email notifications, dat spam :D06:09
coderussquidd: my nickname is not highlighted so frequently :)06:10
m4g0gcoderus: I found way via Context and Canvas06:10
m4g0gabout image data06:10
coderusm4g0g: what is way?06:10
squiddcoderus: yeah but now its about to change cos you just told you might make email notifications06:10
m4g0gcoderus: create Canvas, load image, get 2D context, get imagedata06:10
coderusm4g0g: why you doing it? :D06:11
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m4g0gwhy what? Why I need this? Because application has only 1 c++ class - CustomNetworkAccessManager and all others doing in qml including send/recieve data via XmlHttpRequest06:12
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coderusm4g0g: i mean why you ignoring easy c++ ways?06:13
coderusso, its your choose ofc., i just want to know why peoples doing that :D06:14
m4g0gcoderus: it's interesting =)06:24
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m4g0gcoderus: is it possible to show label in combobox in center (not in left side)?06:30
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ryukafalzcoderus: I use weechat on my server and have it notify me of highlights via XMPP06:32
ryukafalzworks quite well06:32
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Nicd-ryukafalz: how do you do that?06:34
Nicd-I'm interested :)06:34
ryukafalzand then I have an XMPP client on my phone and a smartwatch... end result, my wrist vibrates when I get highlighted ;)06:34
ryukafalzNicd-: Weechat has an XMPP script in its scripts repository06:34
Nicd-what's it called?06:35
coderusm4g0g: use MenuItem as delegate06:35
ryukafalzNicd-: ^06:36
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Nicd-ryukafalz: so I need two XMPP accounts set up?06:38
Nicd-on some network06:39
ryukafalzone for the bot, the other for receiving the messages06:39
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ryukafalzif you already have an XMPP account that you use, that can be the latter :P06:39
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coderusi'm using gtalk, i cant use xmpp bot06:50
coderusgtalk not accepting offline messages06:51
ryukafalzsince when? o.o06:53
ryukafalzand anyway gtalk is a dying platform, I'd suggest another provider as it's unclear if/when gtalk will be going away06:53
coderusno thanks :)06:54
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ryukafalzhah, alright, but if it disappears one day you'll have only yourself to blame ;)06:54
coderuslol, i dont care :)06:57
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coderushighlight me for test07:01
coderusgood, working, thanks for highlight07:02
coderusit have limits for messages-per-10-minutes :)07:03
squiddguess I need to put that too now! :D07:04
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squiddcoderus: your turn to highlight07:13
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coderussquidd: my pleasure :)07:22
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faenilI hope one day Jolla will listen and act :(08:46
faenilthat's the kind of info many are looking for08:46
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faenilplans, details08:51
faenilroadmaps, updates08:51
faeniltech details explained to community08:51
faenilfresh news as soon as they have it08:51
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faenilalways keeping community up to date as much as possible08:52
Sail0rread the mailinglist ;)08:52
Sail0rfor update 6 / 7 it's already there :)08:52
faenilI read it, that's a good step in that direction, but let's not compare the two, sorry :p08:52
Sail0ryeah, it's not perfect08:53
Sail0rbut much better then before08:53
faenilsure, I've been talking about this since like, 8months? more actually08:53
faenilmaybe I was alone, otherwise I have no explanation why it took so long08:53
Sail0rbecause they have too much work maybe?08:54
Sail0rit's a small company remember that08:54
faenilI did an internship there, man :D08:54
Sail0rit's not always easy to keep people up to that08:54
Sail0r*date ...08:54
Sail0rsry cannot write today it's friday ^^08:54
faenilI know, I know, but it's just about priorities08:55
Sail0ryou are right, I also hoped that official statements come faster08:55
faeniland imho, with the current users pool, having a high quality communication with the community is essential08:55
Stskeepsfaenil: technical details missing is explained; it gets collected during iteration planning, we wanted status out first08:55
Sail0rlike a statement for the reboot and or HW issues08:55
faenilStskeeps, yeah, I read that...just noticed the new pathofexile updates and thought I'd mention the issue once more, you know :p08:56
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faeniljust because it's not the first time I hear "we're about to start giving info" or similar :/08:57
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Stskeepswell, this is a new thing, was agreed in community meeting, now executed?08:58
Stskeepsso that's from that meeting08:58
faenildidn't mean the meeting :p but anyway, yes I'm glad to see something moving09:00
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* Stskeeps is so tired today09:04
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SK_workfaenil: think that path of exile have more things to say than Jolla09:10
SK_workitem rarities etc is a subject of discussion09:10
SK_workwhile features are less09:10
faenilSK_work, oh about company size Sail0r...PathOfExile people are like.....20! XD09:11
faenilSK_work, no it's just about choices09:11
faenilyou have at least as many choices in an OS as you have in a game don't you agree09:11
faenilthey've been making dev journals when they were developing the game as well09:12
SK_workfaenil: hum, their article about graphical problems is interesting09:12
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SK_workthough, I would prefer a blog post from devs themselves (if applied at Jolla)09:12
faenilI told Stskeeps about this many times in the past already :)09:12
SK_work(think w00t and Qt experience, or sledges and Android ?)09:12
SK_workbut they might don't want to do that, if they don't like09:13
faenilSK_work, read the desync article, it's not marketing bs, it's good aricles09:13
faeniland you need people writing those, you can't have devs do that (well, that would be great)09:13
SK_workthe feature plan for U6 / 7 is already good though :)09:13
SK_workfaenil: desync ?09:13
faenilon the same subforum09:13
* sledges cringes09:13
faenilas said, the feature plan is a tiny step in the good direction, I'm just hoping it will evolve super fast into something much more comprehensive09:14
faenil(not the feature plan itself, but the "keeping users up to date with our choices" plan)09:14
faeniland the PathOfExile analogy suits our case perfectly imho09:15
SK_workfaenil: reading PoE articles at work sounds wrong :D09:15
SK_workfaenil: +1 about keeping users up-to-date with our choices09:15
SK_workand this can happen in several level09:15
faenila very small company which is making a lot of money, probably (that's my opinion) also because of such good communication with users09:16
SK_workdevs speaking about tech to execs speaking about partnerships09:16
SK_workfaenil: +209:16
SK_workfaenil: hey, raise this in ML and let's discuss on next meeting ?09:16
faenilfree game, only cosmetic transactions, yet people buy a lot of them09:16
faenilI'm stupid because I was too busy playing the game and forgot to attend the last 2 meetings xD09:16
SK_workfaenil: please come back :D09:17
faenilyeah I have to, need to start studying :D09:17
faenilbtw as Stskeeps said already, this is already execution of what was told in the community meeting09:17
faenilso...I guess we just have to wait and see09:17
faeniltime will tell09:17
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SK_workfaenil: suggestions and feedback could be nice, based on this09:22
SK_workI already said in ML that I would like also some technical decisions09:23
SK_workto see if community can write code to Nemo too09:23
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faenilI have to read meetings logs09:24
faenilwant to see if there was any update regarding the documentation of nemo09:24
faenilas I haven't seen any PR or anything re that09:24
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SK_workfaenil: haha09:25
SK_workwell, how to say09:25
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SK_worknobody write them09:25
SK_workbecause as we are all devs, we don't like writing docs09:26
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faenilSK_work, to that I'd reply "okay, let's fail then, because we're devs"09:27
SK_workfaenil: you know, it's hard to maintain docs for components that change a lot09:28
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SK_workand if you don't have a policy of: you break something, you rewrite docs09:28
faenilSK_work, maybe if you start writing docs devs will make more pondered choices about API09:29
faenilinstead of playing around because "we can always change it later"09:29
faeniland Jolla will never get to a better state this way09:29
faeniland it's the same for the rest09:30
SK_workfaenil: I think it could be easy to start selecting some components and start writing docs yeah09:30
SK_work(eg some nemo plugins)09:30
faeniland it's the same for technical choices (cc Stskeeps who's lurking :P )09:30
SK_workanother topic to be discussed then09:30
faenilif you have to tell people about it, then maybe the dev will make a better research09:30
SK_workspeaking of technical choices, there is an urgent need of having autodocs09:30
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faenilI think an overview of the module and its features takes 1-2 days for each dev09:47
faeniland all mw would be covered09:47
faenil*if only* people would be willing to write that09:47
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faenilgah, whatever :/09:52
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dr_gogeta86good morning10:15
dr_gogeta86coderus, is da house ?10:15
TMavicais it possible let the copy paste button appear, if the bar hided10:15
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Armadillois it possible to send an app directly to background/Cover mode after the start?10:41
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Armadillohow? :)10:42
ArmadilloI already tried to deactivate the applicationwindow through qml10:43
Nicd-maybe ask Jonni, he did it for his IP address program10:43
Nicd-I just know it's possible because his app does that10:44
Jonnithere are multiple ways to do it. Easiest is from C++ side.10:44
Jonnifrom QML side it's a bit trickier, but still possible.10:45
Armadillohehe I already recognized the trickyness10:45
Armadillocan you give me a hint how I can get it through qml?10:46
Jonniapplicationwindow has deactivate() method which minimizes the app.10:46
Armadilloyes I already tried it, but it didn't work, maybe because it is called too eraly10:47
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Jonni(and harder way is just to get window object and call lower() on that (thats how ipaddress app does it, because I did the app before deactivate() method was avail).10:48
JonniArmadillo: You might want to wait for Component.onCompleted before calling deactivate()10:49
Armadilloso maybe I have to call a c++ function through qml to get this working10:49
Armadilloyes I'm currently trying this10:50 doesn't work10:50
Jonnipersonally Im just triggering 100ms timer onCompleted and calling lower then10:50
Armadillowell I wanted to avoid such hacks, to avoid problems on busy devices where the application startup would take more time10:51
Jonniany pastebin available what are you currently calling onCompeted function?10:53
Armadilloit's in line 1210:54
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Jonniyou need to call deactivate on mainWindow, or is taskListWindow your main window?10:55
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Jonniso your renamed main.qml window id to be taskListWindow?10:56
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Jonnihmm, then its wierd.10:57
Armadillointeresting is, that the applicationStatus var is false in both cases10:57
Armadillobefore and after the deactivation10:58
ArmadilloI'll do some more debugging and post the results to the mailing list10:59
Armadillothe timer hack works :-/11:04
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Armadilloit seems the application is not really completely started when the onComplete Event occurs11:08
Armadillothanks Jonni and Nicd-11:08
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coderusdr_gogeta86: ?11:37
m4g0gwe have 306 users here and we have so little amount of native applications ((11:40
Nicd-more will come :)11:41
Juubai'm just an user :D and test engineer, so I just like to follow the chat and report issues if&when I can11:44
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Nicd-I'm programming whenever I have time but it's a slow process11:45
walokra^ same here11:46
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ArmadilloI'm already planning my next app11:52
m4g0gwhat app?11:53
Armadillobut as I'm only a sysadmin, not real developer all programming takes more time :-/11:53
m4g0gand what is ur previous app?11:53
ArmadilloTaskList is my first11:53
ArmadilloI'm planning a packet tracking app for multiple shipping distributors11:53
Armadillomaybe with a barcode integration11:53
m4g0gsounds very tasty11:54
Armadillobut there's much work to do :-/11:54
Armadilloand so little free time11:55
Armadillooh come on... why the hell does the timer hack work on the emulator, but not on the device11:55
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coderuswhich hack?11:56
Armadillothe applicationwindow-deactivate issue we discussed above11:57
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coderusi have no problems with active state11:59
coderusyou want to get state when your window minimized and maximized?12:00
ArmadilloI want to minimize the window directly with the startup12:00
Armadillobut it seems the oncomplete event occurs to eraly12:00
coderusdidnt tried, but probably exporting QGuiApplications object to qml will be better idea12:01
Armadilloit works with a timer of 50ms between the start and the deactivation12:01
coderusArmadillo: why not to set it on activeChanged state?12:01
Armadillobecause I didn't know there is such a state :D12:02
Armadillooh that's not true12:02
Armadilloyou mean this one? case PageStatus.Active:12:03 property have onPropertyChanged signal of course :)12:03
Armadillogood point12:03
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coderusmeans appWindow.onActiveChanged12:03
Armadilloit seems I should read the signal documentation^^12:10
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Yanielwhat was the channel for caldav/carddav sync on sailfish again?12:42
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CissWitHi, trying to play with the SDK, i have a problem. Qt creator can't connect to MerSDK and SailfishOS Emulator VMs. Is there something special i need to do to make it work that i missed in the documentation ?13:10
SK_workCissWit: OS ?13:11
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SK_work(for host) win linux mac ?13:11
CissWitDebian squeeze, linux13:11
CissWitthe VM are correctly launched by QT creator, just it can't connect to them13:12
SK_workCissWit: use your virtualbox and launch the SDK ?13:12
SK_worktried ssh into it ?13:12
SK_workssh -p 2222 -i/path/to/SDK/emulator/vmshare/mersdk/mersdk mersdk@localhost13:12
SK_work(something like that, forgot exactly where the mersdk private key is)13:12
CissWitit works13:15
CissWitok its working now dumb problem on my side13:17
CissWitsorry :)13:17
SK_workCissWit: then when pressing the "connect to SDK" in QtC ?13:17
CissWitwell the problem was that "localhost" resolved as IPv6 but it's not listnening on the IPv6 interface.. so it timed out13:19
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SK_workipv6 :(13:22
CissWitbtw i have the same issue than I have to unplug the charger so the battery isn't full and the VM doesn't detect an empty battery.13:23
m4g0ghow to detect end of listview reacing?13:27
m4g0glol, launching app from qtcreator and from emulator are different13:31
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coderusm4g0g: detect what?13:36
m4g0gcoderus: thai user reaced end of list13:37
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SK_workm4g0g: listView.atX(Y)End ?13:38
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m4g0gfuck, i can't continue programming because can't solve six-pages problem.Does anybody has applications with many pages in stack?13:51
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Nicd-maybe SK_work's Friends?13:51
m4g0gi check. There is no many pages in stack13:53
m4g0gthere are*13:53
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coderusm4g0g: possible solution: push ApplicationWindow component :)13:55
m4g0gis it possible?13:58
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m4g0gcoderus: no, it's impossible. this page show from very beginning14:00
SK_workm4g0g: how come ?14:01
SK_workwhy do you have so many pages in stack14:01
SK_workand what's the problem14:01
SK_work(Friends handles 6 rather heavy pages)14:01
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SK_workm4g0g: what the six-pages problem ?14:05
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m4g0gSK_work: problem - how to decrease amount of pages to 414:10
SK_workm4g0g: why ?14:10
SK_workexplain me the flow as well14:11
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SK_workkind of app, what do you put in each page14:11
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m4g0gI am developing goodreads client. I have next pages: profile -> user groups -> search groups -> group detail -> group folders -> group's folder's topics -> topic14:13
m4g0gand I don't know what pages I can unite or replace in this case14:14
SiddeHow for away is qt 5.2 in sailfish now? before or after the summer?14:15
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faenilSidde, good question, it seems it's not part of update7 plan?14:15
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m4g0gSK_work: any ideas?14:28
SK_workm4g0g: explain me more the content of the pages and what pages goes to which one14:31
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SK_workthought about a global menu to access user groups, search groups, details with group folders ?14:32
SK_workglobal groups detail topics topic ?14:32
SK_workit's 514:32
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m4g0gSK_work:  user profile page with profile menu (friends. groups, books)14:37
m4g0ggroups page - list view with groups14:37
m4g0gsearch - search field with list view14:37
m4g0ggroup details - page with list view and some Labels and Images14:37
m4g0ggroup folders - list view14:37
m4g0gfolders topics - list view14:37
m4g0gtopic - widget with text, list view, buttons14:37
SK_workm4g0g: tell me the priority: which pages the users stays the most ?14:39
SK_workfolder topics and topics right ?14:39
SK_workand there is a hierachy, like group -> folders -> topic14:40
SK_workso IMO I propose you something like: main (user profile, search group, available groups) -> group detail and folders (details in attached page) -> topic folders -> topic ?14:41
SK_workwhat do you think ?14:41
m4g0gSK_work: what do you mean under "attached page"?14:43
SK_workm4g0g: used friends ?14:43
SK_workthe menu on the right is attached page14:44
SK_work(or same in messages app, in conversation, you have info of the contact attached)14:44
m4g0gbut this is one more level, isn't it?14:45
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m4g0ghm.I am thinking about your idea. Thank you very much14:48
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alexxyhi all15:46
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alexxyhow to make a screenshot on jolla?15:46
faenilalexxy, there are apps for it, or there's a dbus call, or a bin you can call15:47
Plntalexxy: there is an app for that in the jolla store15:47
faenilmany ways :)15:47
alexxyok i have ssh enabled =)15:47
alexxyany how to?15:47
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faenilwant to go apps? or use the bin?15:48
alexxybin =) or dbus call15:48
alexxyor there is regular wayland way?15:48
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faenilwayland is just a protocol :)15:49
alexxyi'm not familar with it =)15:49
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faenilalexxy, this is for the dbus call15:51
faeniloops sorry wrong file15:51
faeniland this is the bin, which is just a script using the dbus call15:52
faenilopensource FTW :D15:52
alexxythanks =)15:53
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faenilnp ;)15:53
alexxybtw why in announce of next features said that lte will be enabled for Finland and Estonia only?15:54
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faenilno idea, maybe certifications related?15:55
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SK_workalexxy: testing before widespread ?15:55
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faenilor maybe just because Finland and Estonia operators are trusting Jolla and they give them a priority?15:55
SK_workalexxy: reminder: Jolla is official only in FI / Estonia15:55
faenilor yeah, just for testing purposes :)15:55
SK_work(not even in HK)15:55
SK_workthey have offices in HK though15:55
alexxyhe he =D15:56
Stskeeps * 4G support for users in Finland, Hong Kong and Estonia15:56
alexxyFI and Estonia not too far from me =D15:56
StskeepsFor the next update (update 7), we have planned the following new additions:15:56
Stskeeps* LTE enabled for everyone
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TMavicaHong Kong got official LTE support too15:58
TMavica3 country: Finland, Hong Kong, Estonia15:59
TMavicai am ready for 4G , sim card changed15:59
SK_workTMavica: :D16:00
SK_workyou are lucky16:00
SK_workas one of the only Jolla user in HK16:00
TMavicathere is 3 i know16:00
TMavica1 is girl16:00
SK_workTMavica: that is not amanda lam16:00
TMavicayes, not her16:01
TMavicaother one16:01
TMavicashe told me she will rush for the aloe TOH when release there16:01
SK_workTMavica: aloe one is quite good yeah16:01
SK_workbut I prefer the orange16:01
SK_work(poppy red)16:01
SK_work(not first one though)16:01
SK_work(nor "made this" :()16:02
TMavicaI am surprise that have girl use Jolla16:02
SK_workTMavica: honestly ? ambiences and colored OHs attracts girls16:02
SK_workstill too geeky right now to be used by non-geek girls16:02
TMavicai havent buy the poggy red, because I feel it totally same as my first one..16:02
SK_workbut it's going toward stability16:02
SK_workTMavica: yes, poppy red is useless if you have 1st one16:02
TMavicayes. i havent buy it16:03
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TMavicain the update 6, i really concern how the handwriting work.16:03
TMavicamade by Penpower or made by..?16:03
SK_workTMavica: why ?16:03
SK_worknot penpower IMO16:04
TMavicahow u know16:04
SK_workTMavica: because no partnership16:04
SK_workTMavica: is penpower that much better ?16:04
TMavicaO, you right16:04
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TMavicayes, Penpower is most useful and recognize word I ever use before16:05
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TMavicabut how the LTE limited to 3 country only16:06
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SK_workTMavica: IMO it will work that's all16:06
SK_workTMavica: dunno16:06
TMavicaif that country support LTE for Jolla, cant use it? strange16:06
TMavicai mean the sim card support LTE16:07
TMavicaand same frequency as Jolla mentioned16:07
SK_workTMavica: use radio switches16:07
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TMavicaI ever use it, it work16:07
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TMavicaI just afraid Jolla is limited for 1 operator16:07
TMavicanot my operator..16:08
SK_workTMavica: don't think so16:09
SK_workI'm using 4G with "Free" in France without issue16:09
SK_workeven if "Free" prevents users to profit from their 20Go data plan without 4G16:10
SK_workit detects the Jolla as 4G, so, I can have 4G16:10
TMavicabut Jolla said 3 country only, what they mean16:10
SK_workTMavica: they don't limit to an operator tjhough16:11
SK_workthey limit to country16:11
SK_worknote that U7 will remove this limitation as well16:11
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TMavicais Marc everytime been to that country when Jolla official release there?16:13
TMavicalike Estonia16:13
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ryukafalzHas anyone ported Sailfish to the 2012 Nexus 7? And if so, is the image/kickstart file available anywhere?16:39
dwangoACStskeeps: I've been using the N4 build full time for a few weeks now and I stand by my statement - for my usage, this is very nearly "good enough", but sadly I just can't take the home screen crashing / locking up 3 times a day and requiring me to hard power-cycle the phone16:39
dwangoACThe other feature that I'm still struggling with is the lack of Bluetooth, as it means that I can't make calls while driving (which I do infrequently, but needed to do last night to let my wife know I was headed home)16:39
dwangoACAre there any plans for another Nexus 4 build in the near future?16:40
dwangoACI'm very appreciative of the work you and stephg have done on this, though!16:41
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StskeepsdwangoAC: yes, we're waiting for next sailfishos updat17:18
Stskeepsi didn't crack bluetooth yet17:18
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vgradeevening all18:07
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Stskeepsevening vgrade18:10
dwangoACStskeeps: Thanks for the update18:10
dwangoACStskeeps: Anything interesting coming in the next update?18:10
dwangoACStskeeps: In particular, anything toward getting it to not crash as often? :)18:10
vgrade\o Stskeeps18:11
Stskeeps and yes, hopefully18:11
Stskeepsand we fixed audio controls, at least18:13
dwangoACStskeeps: Cool!18:14
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dwangoACStskeeps: I'm looking forward to it.  Will there be a way to get Android App compatibility on the Nexus 4?18:14
dwangoAC(Even if I have to hack it in somehow? :)18:14
Stskeepsperhaps at some point in the future18:14
Stskeepsbasics first18:14
dwangoACWhat's holding that up from working, store support?18:14
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Stskeepsit's a commercial product as a start18:15
dwangoACSomething you plan on selling, in other words?18:15
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Stskeepslong story short, there's something called a SW Bill Of Materials too. when you buy let's say, a jolla phone, the SW BOM is included, which contains things/licenses/codecs/apps you pay per device18:15
Stskeepson a non-jolla device we'd be taking a loss if we gave it for free per device -- so that needs to be figured out how to be handled sanely18:16
Stskeepswe have some value add things like audio/video codecs, exchange support, HERE positioning/maps, android runtime on the jolla, as an example18:16
dwangoACStskeeps: The Raspberry Pi foundation had the same problem with MPEG2 codecs18:17
dwangoACStskeeps: They solved it by having a separate license you could buy18:17
dwangoACStskeeps: Question, if you don't mind me asking - how much does Alien Dalvilk cost you?18:17
dwangoACFeel free to not answer if that is private information18:17
Stskeepscan't answer, sorry18:17
dwangoACI understand.  Just trying to get a bead on what a fiar price would be18:18
Stskeepsless than 399 EUR ;)18:18
dwangoACStskeeps: In reality, while the SailfishOS should stay free (IMHO, with my "President of a Linux LUG" hat on)18:18
dwangoACStskeeps: Per phone, or total? :)18:18
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dwangoACBut, yeah, whil I think the OS should be free, I think you should be paid18:18
dwangoACFor things like the extra software for Alien Dalvlk (always misspell that)18:19
Stskeepsyeah.. i think (personally!) that it doesn't make much sense to try and spread a mobile OS by charging for it18:19
Stskeepsother business models needed18:19
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dwangoACSUpport models, etc.18:19
dwangoACRed Hat is the shining example18:19
Stskeepsyeah, but when did you last see anybody talking to a mobile phone care line? ;)18:19
dwangoACI'm here to say that if you can make it available, I would pay a reasonable amount up-front for all of the software you mentioned18:19
Sidderedhat is not opensource and not free18:19
Stskeeps(nor is sailfish, fwiw)18:20
Stskeepsas in, fully oss18:20
Siddecorrection, rhel is not18:20
dwangoACSidde: Not in the strictest sense of free, but things like Scientific Linux are18:20
SiddedwangoAC: yes18:20
dwangoACSidde: Right18:20
dwangoACStskeeps: So how much would you consider a fair price for the codecs, exchange support, Android App Compatibility, etc. as a "OS for free, SailfishOS Plus costs..."?18:21
dwangoACSomething like $30 per phone up-front?18:21
Stskeepssorry :)18:21
dwangoACStskeeps: Or are you thinking a subscription model?18:21
Stskeepsvery good questions, though18:21
ryukafalzLooking at hardware things... Moto G and Jolla both have a Snapdragon 400, wonder how easy it would be to port considering that. Of course that doesn't take other hardware into account...18:21
Stskeepsryukafalz: i've at some point in my past put sailfishos on a crappy little alcatel one touch fire..18:21
dwangoACStskeeps: Long and the short of it, as a consumer that is willing to pay I would prefer to only have to pay once, and I would prefer to pay a "reasonable" amount, where reasonable is hard to define but no more than, say, $70 USD at the very most18:22
ryukafalzStskeeps: Aha, and with all the hardware working?18:22
AarddwangoAC: it'd depend on volumes as well, for some of the parts. so we might need to start charging something quite high, and have the ability to lower it eventually18:22
dwangoACAard: Of course18:22
Stskeepsryukafalz: well, gpu is enough for PoC18:22
dwangoACAard: And, quite honestly, I'd prefer ala carte pricing18:22
dwangoACAard: I do not require Exchange support, for instance18:22
dwangoACBut I'd want to be able to buy it once for my "account" and use it on a new phone if I buy a new one, and as a greedy consumer I'd want ongoing software updates to be free, and... yeah, consumers are demanding18:23
StskeepsdwangoAC: 70 USD in total over let's say 12 months would be a 'good deal' from subscription pov -- whatsapp's evaluation of what, 5 billion, was due to people paying 1 usd/year or something like that18:24
AarddwangoAC: _if_ we find a way to charge for stuff my personal position would be to go through store and do it component based (apart from our own 'flagship' device, when we sell it in the store it probably should just have all the options)18:24
dwangoACSo at that point, WingIDE's licensing model seems the most sane - you get all updates of major versions (3.x license gets you all 3.x updates), and you get a discount on major versions (to 4.x, etc.)18:24
ryukafalzStskeeps: True, but not so nice as a daily driver :P18:24
dwangoACAard: Agree with you on "flagship" device18:24
dwangoACStskeeps: But I hate subscription modeling as a consumer18:24
* ryukafalz will likely get a Nexus 4 if he can find one at a reasonable price18:24
dwangoACStskeeps: There's a really cool project called that teaches you how to use Vim by playing a video game, but after you get through the first level it says "Register for $25 to get a 6 months license"18:25
StskeepsdwangoAC: worst one i saw.. contraction counter18:25
dwangoACStskeeps: That just offends me - for $25 for a simple game I expect to be able to "keep" it18:25
Stskeepsafter 3, it asks you to upgrade..18:25
AarddwangoAC: I like the model of goosync. they have subscription models, or you can pay a bit more once18:25
dwangoACStskeeps: WHat the..18:25
dwangoACStskeeps: That's horrible18:26
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dwangoACStskeeps: You'd only find out after you were in the very moment when you needed it18:26
Stskeepsi'm fairly sure that's the business model18:26
dwangoACStskeeps: "Hang on honey, I gotta find my credit card!"18:26
dwangoACAard: I'd be a "pay a bit more once" customer.  Not familiar with goosync18:26
dwangoACAard: I'll have to look that one up18:26
AarddwangoAC: they provide syncml interface to google services18:27
dwangoACStskeeps: Anyway, take my feedback as merely suggestions from a consumer, and do what is right for your company.18:27
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dwangoACStskeeps: If there is anything I can do to help out, just let me know.18:27
StskeepsdwangoAC: did you see Flattr ever at some point?18:27
dwangoACStskeeps: Flattr?  What's that?18:27
* dwangoAC is oblivious to social media18:27
Aardit's a way to send me money :p18:28
dwangoACI am a Bitcoin supporter18:28
dwangoACI've been mining Bitcoin since 201118:28
dwangoACSo for me, the only correct microtransaciton method is Bitcoin :)18:28
Stskeepswell, anyhow, the flattr stuff is 'pay XX/month, decide what %'s go to what parties'18:28
Stskeepsso you could state let's say, 10% go to sailfishos18:28
Stskeepsgood for oss18:28
dwangoACStskeeps: I agree with the concept18:29
dwangoACStskeeps: I think that is one of the best strengths of Bitcoin, is it's easy to send small amounts of money (and painless / costs nearly nothing)18:29
dwangoACStskeeps: That allows new business models18:29
ryukafalzit's not ideal for really small microtransactions though :P18:29
mikmait's like humblebundle, but not18:30
dwangoACryukafalz: Actually, it's not bad for that eiether18:30
dwangoACryukafalz: There was some blowback from Satoshidice18:30
dwangoACryukafalz: But in all honesty, if you want to move, say, 3 cents, it'd cost a fraction of a penny in a transaction fee if that's what you wanted to offer18:30
ryukafalzdwangoAC: Imagine 100 projects doing something similar to satoshidice though and what it would do to the blockchain18:31
dwangoACryukafalz: What's a problem now is that the Bitcoin Core wallet doesn't do a great job of setting transaction fees for small transactions18:31
dwangoACryukafalz: The blockchain handling definitely needs to improve to handle larger volumes of transactions of all sizes, not just small ones18:31
dwangoACit's a scale question regardless of the size of the transactions18:32
dwangoACryukafalz: I would welcome 100 projects doing the same volume as Satoshidice (or, more likely, 100,000 projects doing 1% of what Satoshidice does)18:32
ryukafalzTrue, it's just a lot easier to up the transaction volume when you're shifting around tiny amounts :P18:32
dwangoACRight :)18:33
dwangoACBut, I dgress18:33
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dwangoACStskeeps: Oh, one other bug - on the Nexus 4, using the brwoser to scroll to the bottom of a page causes it to crash.18:33
dwangoACI do not yet know why.18:33
StskeepsdwangoAC: hmm will keep that in mind18:33
Stskeepsi currently have 'won't even start up' on my latest image, so, that takes first prio ;)18:34
dwangoACStskeeps: Are browser logs stored somewhere I can look up for you?18:34
dwangoACStskeeps: I imagine it would :)18:34
Stskeepswhat'd you do with a OS with built in bitcoin support, ooi?18:34
Stskeeps(i'm doing research, so, don't taket his as official statements..)18:34
dwangoACStskeeps: If it had NFC support I would use it to pay for stuff at stores that accepted Bitcoin18:34
dwangoACStskeeps: And research is a good thing18:34
ryukafalzdwangoAC: Somewhat off-topic for this channel, but a possible solution is - another project I'm following is looking into using that for per-packet microtransactions on a network18:35
dwangoACStskeeps: Heck, if it didn't have NFC support but had QR support I'd scan a QR code and pay a vendor that way18:35
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dwangoACryukafalz: I'll have to look into that, that sounds interesting (especially since I work on networking as my day job, albeit 100 Gbps equipment)18:35
ryukafalzdwangoAC: The project in question is
dwangoACStskeeps: As far as what else I would do with an OS with built-in Bitcoin support, for the immediate future I would use it to buy gift cards from Gyft and to buy Humble Bundles18:37
dwangoACStskeeps: As in, for the time being it would all be internet purchaes18:37
dwangoACStskeeps: As vendors in brick-and-mortar stores start to adopt Bitcoin it would transition to in-person18:37
dwangoACStskeeps: Also, you should consider 2-of-3 wallets -18:37
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dwangoACStskeeps: Very, very important concept18:37
Stskeeps2-of-3 wallets?18:38
dwangoACStskeeps: The phone would have one key, "you" or a bank would have the other18:38
dwangoACStskeeps: The third key would be in a safety deposit box18:38
dwangoACStskeeps: When I want to make a transaction, it has to be signed by both the private key on the phone and the "bank"18:38
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dwangoACStskeeps: If the bank pulls a Greece, they can't take your money (they have only 1 key)18:38
ryukafalzBuilt-in support would be awesome for NFC or QR code bitcoin purchases at stores18:38
dwangoACStskeeps: If you lose your private key, you recover using the "bank" + your key in the safety deposit box18:38
dwangoACStskeeps: The "bank" uses sane anti-fraud methods to determine which transactions to allow18:39
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dwangoACStskeeps: So if, suddenly, you try to empty your entire wallet, the service the "bank" provides is checking with you by E-Mail first18:39
dwangoACStskeeps: And text message, and a phone call, and whatever18:39
dwangoACStskeeps: Depends on how "severe" the transaction is18:39
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dwangoACStskeeps: This is a huge opportunity.  Just waiting for someone to implement it.18:40
dwangoACStskeeps: Current leaders here are crypto-corp18:40
ryukafalzoh, that's cool, I hadn't thought of using 2-of-3 purchases for that use case18:40
dwangoACryukafalz: It's a really sane use case18:40
dwangoACIt's a way of mitigating the "risk" of using Bitcoin18:40
ryukafalzdwangoAC: Yeah. Also good for things like escrow - a neutral third party can verify that a product has been received18:41
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ryukafalzor am I thinking of something else...18:41
dwangoACryukafalz: That's different - those are 2-of-3 multisignature transactions18:41
dwangoACryukafalz: Those are fantastic for escrow18:41
dwangoACryukafalz: And honestly, they are fantastic in general18:41
dwangoACryukafalz: The neutral party only gets involved if they have to18:41
ryukafalzit's really cool that bitcoin can do all this stuff18:41
dwangoACryukafalz: Yes, it just takes a platform to make it possible ( Stskeeps, that's where your wallet / Bitcoin support on the phone come into play)18:42
dwangoACryukafalz: It also takes one other odd thing that people haven't thought of18:42
dwangoACryukafalz: Vendors that accept Bitcoin need to start paying a part of their employee's compensation in Bitcoin18:42
ryukafalzthough I'm not sure how necesary it would be to build it into the OS vs. just having a wallet app on the phone18:42
dwangoACryukafalz: WIthout that, the system never gets the feedback loop of adoption needed18:42
dwangoACryukafalz: It should be an unprivileged wallet app, outside of protecting the private key from theft18:43
dwangoACryukafalz: That's the only part that might need to be "in the OS"18:43
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dwangoACAll very exciting18:44
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ryukafalzoh, though some knowledge of bitcoin in the OS could be useful for in-app transactions (with authorization from the user, of course)18:48
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ryukafalzor rather, maybe some kind of generic "payment" API - pay X amount (local currency) to Y party via Z method18:49
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Stskeepswell, 'pay' button in contacts..18:50
ryukafalzaha, that would be interesting18:51
dwangoACStskeeps: That'd be good18:53
dwangoACStskeeps: Coinbase has a "pay user by E-Mail" but it just makes the receipient sign up for a Coinbase account, not quite ideal :)18:53
dwangoACStskeeps: I suppose a user could have a bitcoin address associated with them, not ideal because it would reduce privacy, but it'd work18:54
dwangoAC(associted in address book)18:54
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ryukafalzdwangoAC: How would that reduce privacy? It's a local address book - same as the bitcoin client's address book.18:56
dwangoACryukafalz: Right, but ideally you want to make transactions to new addresses every time18:57
ryukafalzdwangoAC: For transactions between friends is that really that important though?18:58
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ryukafalzAnyway, gotta head to work - see you later19:02
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dr_gogeta86Stskeeps , a single question ....20:55
dr_gogeta86when will be possible to put on harbour rpms who extend share ui ?20:56
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alinsitu: so you succeeded22:45
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