Thursday, 2014-07-24

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tortoisedocgood morning!05:47
tortoisedoclbt : you mentioned in the last meeting for paid apps you are missing testing capabilities?05:49
tortoisedoc(I had to leave quickly so I only catched this line)05:49
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vakkovmorning! Is ti possible to use sdl 1.2 in sailfish or moving to sdl2 is mandatory06:58
giucamvakkov: sdl 1.2 doesn't work on wayland07:00
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SK_workmoarning everybody \o/07:34
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lainwir3dSK_work: morning !07:39
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lbttortoisedoc: not so much missing them - since we don't do paid apps much then I don't think we have a complete QA approach for them. ie how do our QA people test the variety of payment mechanisms08:22
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tortoisedoclbt: jolla should provide it's own payment mechanism?08:23
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tortoisedocor actually I do not know how other stores work, but from a dev standpoint, this is the impression i get :p08:24
artemmaonly if they want payments to actually happen :)08:24
tortoisedocartemma : then this is another problem08:24
tortoisedoci mean, it is different topic08:24
tortoisedocor argument08:25
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artemmaI used four app stores, abt two of them I was checking the payment ways08:25
artemmaI think Ovi store had it the best way08:25
tortoisedocartemma : yes exactly08:25
tortoisedocovi store was great08:25
tortoisedocand also ios store08:25
artemmaThey supported credit cards as a fallback and in supporting countries/operators you could pay by SMS08:26
artemmaauto-sms of course08:26
lbttortoisedoc: well yes, that would be nice. but atm we don't :)08:26
artemmathat is according to my memories, not 100% sure08:26
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artemmaand I think in some supporting operators you could just add payment to your phone bill (or maybe that was via SMS too)08:26
tortoisedoclbt : i can imagine it requires quite alot of infrastructure08:26
lbtyes - it is not trivial and there is a lot of investment08:27
tortoisedocartemma : yes that is correct, payment via operators was possible on ovi08:27
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artemmaBut that was due to the huge Nokia strength over all others: great connections to operators everywhere08:27
tortoisedoclbt : i guess also alot of legal stuff08:27
artemmaNobody else was able to do it since I think08:27
artemmanot on that scale08:27
lbtyep - when you think it through it becomes apparent how much needs doing08:27
tortoisedoclbt : yes, but for single devvers like me for an example08:28
tortoisedocthe problem is the same08:28
artemmabut then again, Jolla is in sales in a handful of countries only, so you don't need to make it global anyway :)08:28
tortoisedoci.e. if i implement my own in-app purchase system, i will have to deal with the same legal stuff08:29
tortoisedocartemma : good point08:29
lbtI would be interested in paid apps too08:29
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artemmaown in-app purchase... if angry users won't kill you, legal guys will :)08:29
tortoisedocartemma : yes :P08:30
tortoisedocand taxations08:30
lbtalthough I still want something to allow stores to handle OSS apps without others cloning and undercutting on price :)08:30
tortoisedocthis is the reason i had ads in quickbar08:30
tortoisedoca bit crappier service, but no legal responsabiliities / hassle, no problems, only revenue08:30
* artemma hoped to see download graphs first.. you know, to keep thinking abt how much sense paid apps would make08:31
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artemmaBut then again I would expect quite a lot of broken hopes when devs figure there is no real money in paid apps on Jolla - do we want to build a feature that will result in broken expectations instantly? :)08:32
lbtwhy do you say that?08:32
lbt(not disagreeing - just asking)08:32
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tortoisedocbottom line is08:33
artemmaStandard numbers for games when you speculate are that maybe 1-3% of people will pay08:33
tortoisedocare there other reasons apart of technical ones to not have paid apps?08:33
artemmamostly talking abt in-app purchases in games (that is biggest thing paying)08:33
tortoisedoci.e. open source ones, etc?08:33
lbttortoisedoc: no08:33
smoku_artemma: most devs already know there is no money in paid apps08:33
lbttbh I'm not sure apps are worth much to most devs on most platforms08:33
smoku_regardless of the platform08:33
tortoisedocsmoku_ : i bet to disagree08:33
tortoisedoc*beg :P08:34
lbttortoisedoc: 'most'08:34
tortoisedocI still disagree08:34
smoku_well... in major exception for the store owner...08:34
tortoisedocthere is money, maybe not BIG money08:34
smoku_it's like a cassino - no matter who wins or looses - store owner gets a cut :)08:34
tortoisedocn9 was giving nice numbers08:34
tortoisedocuntil our canadian friend shot it down :|08:34
artemmalbt: So if Jolla sales are even 100K phones and magically 30% of people install your app (hige overestimate only because there are no apps yet) and they will all even 2 euros, that's 60K euros08:35
artemmaAnd that is a huge overestimate that might happen for 1-2 apps only08:35
smoku_tortoisedoc: yes. there is hope - there are people winning in Las Vegas, so devs flock in hope that they would win too ;-)08:35
artemmafor the rest of devs, it will be some 100-1000 times less08:35
lbtartemma: yep - the simple numbers08:36
artemmaBut paid apps is not the only way, that's not what the other young platforms doing08:36
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lbtI wasn't sure if the culture around jolla (oss, free) was the other issue08:36
* artemma was trying Ovi, BB10, Tizen - none of them relies on paid apps for app biz start08:36
artemma*from* start08:36
artemmapaid apps are for continuation08:36
artemmayou start with throwing money at devs08:37
smoku_the real eye-opener is looking at what happened to the most know of them all: Angry Birds08:37
smoku_they went from paid app model to advertising08:37
smoku_wonder why... ;-)08:37
artemmaMostly in one of the following ways: app contests, sponsored or co-sponsored apps (a'la MSFT AppCampus) and via match-making good devs with clients who may like to cover-yet-another-platfrom-if-its-easy08:38
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lbtsmoku_: they got enough users to sell them08:39
tortoisedocartemma : contests? they are one-time shot08:39
artemmatortoisedoc: contests bring apps for cheap08:39
lbttortoisedoc: the point of them is to motivate devs to overcome the initial learning curve08:39
SK_workartemma: problem: jolla got no money to throw to contests etc.08:40
artemmaCome on, even 500K euro you throw at contest is a cost of maybe 10 good apps if you do them super cheap,3-5 normal apps08:40
artemmathat sure makes sense only if you actually have money indeed08:41
smoku_lbt: sure - i'm exaggerating a bit ;-)  but I don't want to dive into price-setting practices. ;-)08:41
lbtsmoku_: I was serious and you're correct08:41
artemmaor to look at it more conceptually: contest makes more sense if having working 3rd party apps is more important than spending money on e.g. improving the platform and getting in bed with operators08:41
artemmathat might be not true for Jolla in dfact08:42
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lbtanyhow ... off to do some hacking o/08:42
smoku_tortoisedoc: to be fair - you can have paid apps in harbour even today. there are no rules against. ;-)08:43
* artemma thinks hmm.. if Jolla has no money to throw money at devs, maybe it could play the card of a "real free platform" for a while and not spend resources on making paid apps work at all :)08:43
artemmathat is until first big operator gets interested08:44
tortoisedocso the problem is that there are not enough devs?08:47
tortoisedoc(apart of operators :P)08:47
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smoku_artemma: one of the subsidiaries of the company I work for is running an online e-book store. a businnes similar to an app store. and it takes them ~50 people to manage this business.   (a third of current Jolla headcount)08:48
tbrnice that someone finally acknowledges that there actually are ways for revenue aside from paid apps, which won't work well anyway in the mobile space.08:48
tortoisedoctbr: what are these ways`?08:48
smoku_we need to ressurect shareware :)08:49
tortoisedocI see where this is going :P08:49
tbrjust what smoku stated plus: money flow outside store process: paypal, own CC processing, ads, addon sales, freemium, service models08:49
smoku_Ouya console is running this model from the beginning08:52
smoku_every app is free to try08:52
tbror even more creative: libraries, c.f. spotify and the library based cutespotify app08:52
smoku_and you can unlock additional content inside app08:52
tbrit makes sense, as people hate to buy the cat in the bag08:52
* smoku_ agrees08:53
tbrfrom a sales point of view it is good to reduce the psychological barrier to a payment decision08:53
smoku_and it forces devs to have two versions in store:  paid "App" and "App Free" for people to try08:53
kimmoliwhich s**kcs imho08:54
smoku_tbr: to be honest - there are people hating in-app sales, saying that they feel screwed into believing the app is free08:54
smoku_but I say - screw them - they wouldn't pay anyway, even if it was up-front08:55
* artemma thinks most real money in apps (aside for hit games) are in connecting apps to internet services08:55
leinirit makes sense, yes... except it failed for Ouya, who have dropped the free requirement, for exactly that reason - having to maintain those two versions is manpower most game developers don't have, and the large makers won't expend08:55
artemmaso then for a new app platform strategy is to 1) get hit games no matter what it it takes 2) help online service makers (e.g. Dropbox) understand there is one more platform for cheap 3) Get platform devs ready and connected to these potential clients ?08:56
tbrsmoku_: correct, there always will be critics. same people would cry that they can't try the paid app. without even intending to buy it08:56
smoku_leinir: there are no two versions on Ouya.  there is always one version, free to try, with unlockable content inside later08:56
leinirsmoku_: it is still manpower that needs to be expended08:56
* artemma thinks platform try-before-you-buy could actually be powerful and somewhat disruptive mechanism08:57
smoku_leinir: and it didn't failed.  they were blackmailed by big studios, who do not want to adapt to this model.  they got the ultimatum - either there is up-front payment, or no AAA content on Ouya08:57
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leinirsmoku_: and... which part of that means the model didn't fail?08:58
smoku_leinir: exactly. these studios do not have budget to spend on adapting.  so the choice was painful, but obvious08:58
smoku_leinir: did arrival of TV caused Radio to fail? ;-)   these two models co-exist08:58
leinirit failed as a do-all-end-all solution, which is what Ouya launched on08:59
leinirit's now an option, and sure, there it works just fine08:59
smoku_life manages expectations... tough luck ;-)09:00
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smoku_artemma: you have a good point.  there is a void a community could fill, i.e. by creating libs/qml components for drop-in paypal integration etc.09:04
artemmasmoku_: I think I was after something else :)09:05
artemmapaypal integration is good too, but can't see why it would fly without Jolla support09:05
smoku_I am experimenting with online scoreboard.  I could extend the scope of score tracking, to "registered" users tracking09:06
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artemmauhm... imho everything payment related got to be endorsed by the platform makers..09:08
artemmawouldn't tell my credit card number to a 3rd party window09:08
smoku_artemma: you don't shop online?09:09
artemmadesktop browsers are different09:09
artemmayou can see much more stuff, you control much more stuff and in the end you launch browser yourself, not enter credit card number to an in-app window09:10
tortoisedocsmoku_ : I hope you do not mean AAA hardcore games on ouya09:10
artemmain fact browsers even support HTTP standards that let e.g. PayPal force browser show itself in a standalone window (not as a part of some other possibly fake page)09:11
smoku_artemma: there's no harm in launching a browser window from your app.  I do this for donations :)09:11
* artemma just had issue with some of these standards trying to show a login dialog in a web view09:11
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tortoisedocsmoku_ : yes, I do it too - and what happens? if you do not confirm your pass with enter, the login button on the paypal page will not be activated :P09:12
tortoisedocwhich is tampering the donations quite alot09:12
artemmastandard numbers from web: every extra click needed to pay, takes about 50% users off. How much would you loose if you need to start separate app, wait for slow mobile web loading and going to check Green security checkmark needs you to go to the off-screen menu?09:13
tortoisedocin-app purchase via paypal / CC -> great idea, great effor09:13
tortoisedoc*effort for developers09:13
smoku_tortoisedoc: browser is open source - we need to fix it ASAP ;-)09:13
artemmaI personally would probably trust paypal payment launched ina mobile web browser, my understanding is that most of ppl won't09:14
tortoisedoc:D sorry currently focussing on quickbar integration  ;)09:14
tortoisedocartemma : why not?09:14
tortoisedocpaypal is very reliable09:14
tortoisedocand very expensive for receivers :09:14
artemmait doesn't look and feel secure09:14
artemmanot paypal, the browser :)09:14
smoku_artemma: most people are not as paranoid as you and would even trust in-app form ;-)09:14
artemmahow do you know it's real paypal? :)09:14
tortoisedocartemma : certificate :P09:15
artemmaand even if it is real, how do you know nobody is listening in the middle?09:15
tortoisedocother option for paid apps is ads09:15
artemmaexactly! How exactly do you see in Jolla browser that PayPal cert is correct and points to PayPal inc? :)09:15
tortoisedocads === dislike and ALOT of bad feedback09:15
tortoisedocads === not usable from harbour (as no access to imei)09:15
tortoisedocthe first one is a bigger reason not to go with ads on jolla imo09:16
artemmaand that's skippng the question of whether mobile encryption standards are strong enough09:16
tortoisedoc(even tho android apps show ads just fine=09:16
tortoisedoc(even tho android apps show ads just fine)09:16
tortoisedocartemma : ofc anything can be hacked09:16
artemmaApple provides its own ID for ads and kills apps that try using own09:16
tortoisedocso Apple is ad provider as well09:17
tortoisedocproblem is not ads09:17
tortoisedocproblem is target market is too small atm for jolla to use ads09:17
tortoisedoc90% of target market hate ads :D09:17
artemmatortoisedoc: I just think that mobile web payment for apps has the worst combo of both worlds (or three of them?): it's inconvenient; it's not trusted due to not trusting mobile browser much in the first place; it's hard to check security there09:18
smoku_tortoisedoc: s/ads/intrusive ads/09:18
smoku_for non-intrusive we developed banner blidness09:18
artemmaall of these reasons will kill quite some payments and Jolla doesn't have many potential customers to stsrt with09:18
tortoisedocsmoku_: pardon my ignorance, what's the s in the beginning for?09:18
tortoisedocartemma : how about a dedicated jolla paypal app09:19
smoku_tortoisedoc: it's sed (stream ed-itor) syntax for search&replace09:19
artemmatortoisedoc: that would sure help, but in order to be trusted such app needs to be trusted or encouraged by jolla09:19
tortoisedocsmoku_ : ok and what is banner blidness? :P09:19
smoku_tortoisedoc: research shown, that people using web are unconsciously skipping anything looking like an advertisement banner while first comprehension of a displayed page content09:20
tortoisedocsmoku_ : ah ok09:21
tortoisedocso placement of ad is relevant09:21
tortoisedocis that what you mean?09:21
smoku_and looks09:21
smoku_most efficient are advertisements integrated in page layout and content.09:22
smoku_look at google sponsored search links09:22
smoku_they look and act like organic search results09:22
smoku_and are non-intrusive09:22
smoku_do not clash with your normal workflow09:22
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tortoisedocha! new version of quickbar approved in harbour :P09:25
tortoisedocis there a way to get the imei without qdeviceinfo?09:25
smoku_my flappy 0.4 still pending :(09:25
smoku_tortoisedoc: there is this thing in harbour - you are not allowed to dynamically link with many libraries. but there is nothing stopping you to link statically, or include the library in your RPM. ;-)09:27
tortoisedocaah so it was you who ported flappy bird! damn you !;)09:27
dcosnethi all09:27
tortoisedocsmoku_  : aaah and GPL'ize all your code i see ;)09:27
tadziksmoku_: does the high score button show high scores now? :)09:27
tbrtortoisedoc: that would happen either way09:27
dcosnettempted to try and install sailfish on my "emerson em543" pocket tablet09:27
tortoisedoctbr : really? cause I thought qt is on LGPL?09:28
dcosnetits armv7 cortex a809:28
tortoisedocdcosnet : cool project!09:28
smoku_tadzik: there is no highscore button in new ver. ;-)   but like I said, I'm working on online scoreboard, so it will be back in full glory09:28
tbrthe reasoning behind the linking is that jolla might change the libraries and that would break your apps09:28
tadzikhehe, neat09:28
tortoisedoctbr : pardon, but how's that related to licensing?09:29
tbrit isn't, you lumped that in09:29
tbrmy second statement was  on the linking not allowed problem09:29
smoku_tortoisedoc: you can include .so in your rpm in /usr/share/harbour-yourapp and link dynamically.  there's a FAQ entry on this09:29
tbrthe licensing situation does not change if you ship the library or if it's on the os, you are linking against it.09:30
tortoisedoctbr : aah I see, apologies for the confusion :)09:31
* artemma hopes that one day Jolla won't force me to modify nemoplugins source code for use in my app09:31
smoku_tortoisedoc: the cause you are not allowed to link with the system library is not that the library is somehow evil.  it's just not api stable and system upgrade could break your app. won't happen if you provide your own copy.09:31
tbrwhat he said09:32
artemmaif you provide your own QML plugin, it MUST be imported via import harbour.myapp.plugin09:32
tortoisedoctbr, artemma : thanks09:32
smoku_artemma: minor inconvinience ;-)09:32
artemmathat forces you to either change plugin source code or hide your .qml from jolla chekers into resources09:32
* artemma is sad because the checker checks whats easy, not what it should09:33
artemmait is possible to import nemowhatever while loading your own plugin copy, but Harbour checks just the easily available qml files instead..09:33
artemmaoh well, maybe I just need to start hiding my qmls to resources09:34
smoku_tortoisedoc: btw, flappy is open sourced. if you want to join development - feel free :)09:34
artemmait's a pity that I would loose useful checks too then09:34
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tortoisedocsmoku_ : :D I had some ideas for a game09:35
tortoisedocbut no time ;_;09:35
tortoisedoci wonder09:36
smoku_there are some cool new features in the pending update :D09:36
dcosnetanyone have sailfish running on the "open pandora"? that too is armv7 cortex a8 with a mali 400 gpu09:36
tortoisedocwhat would happen *if*09:36
tortoisedocan android app would be used to rely on google's in-app purchase service for payments? :P09:36
tortoisedocdefinitely a legal storm?09:36
tbrdcosnet: wasn't that an OMAP3?09:37
dcosnetjust wondering09:37
dcosneti'm looking forward to the pyra09:37
dcosnetaka "open pandora 2"09:38
tortoisedocdcosnet : is that project still running?09:38
tbryou can make things work on a OMAP3, see N9/N950 images09:38
dcosnetthe open pandora, and the emerson em543 are very similar btw. the emerson is only 60$ heh09:39
dcosneti do miss the open pandora battery life though09:40
dcosnetthis emerson averages 2 hours to 309:40
smoku_where are analog sticks and keyboard on the em543? :>09:42
dcosnetya its not as complete obviously. but same hardware internal basically09:43
vakkovagh, guys what is the equivalent of contains(MEEGO_EDITION,harmattan)  for sailfish09:46
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vakkov# Extra Qt modules09:54
vakkovgreaterThan(QT_MAJOR_VERSION,4) {09:54
vakkovQT += widgets systeminfo09:54
vakkovoops, wrong channel09:54
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alinhi boys and girls10:37
alinjust got sailfish os on my nexus5... and it works... even reboots10:37
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alini tried the email client10:37
alinand after a while it gives up updating with this error...10:38
alinany ideas?10:38
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vakkovwhat is the version of gcc in the SDK? 4.6?11:07
vakkovit doesn't support override11:07
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nad6234hi there11:08
nad6234I'm developing a sailfish app, and i need to get it to send an sms. Where is the api docs on that?11:09
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inte`nad6234 isnt sending sms protected in terms that it would open the (preloaded) sms app instead?11:44
dr_gogeta86connman in failed state11:45
nad6234inte`: i don't minf how it is sent. I was just.looking for documentation11:45
nad6234pp_: thanks. bookmarked!11:48
nad6234I've used smscon on my n900 before.11:49
nad6234ok, so i guess the next question is looking for examples of dbus usage via sailfishos.11:50
nad6234perhaps I'm missing something, but the sdk has lots on tke UI stuff, but nothing on the rest (?)11:51
pp_poking around with qdbus or whatnot may help, and lot of stuff is the same or similar as n911:52
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nad6234mmm. i guess i will revisit good ole maemo.org11:55
nad6234i skipped the  n911:55
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nad6234(switched from WiFi to mobile & lost connection)12:09
lukedirtwalkeralin: maybe ping VDVsx I think he is email guy12:09
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stephgalin: that pastie no workie, and fwiw the email should work fine (it does on the n4)12:12
alinstephg: is dead already... stupid paste...12:12
alinstephg: yes email worked for a while...12:12
alinstephg: then got lost in bits12:12
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smoku_nad6234: Qt C++ or QML?12:17
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nad6234smoku_: well I'm a C coder (25yrs), but QML looks straightforward (?)12:18
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smoku_nad6234: depends. if all your app is JS+QML then it's easier to talk to DBus via QML plugin12:21
alinstephg: nad6234 rebooted and seems to be cool now12:21
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smoku_nad6234: on the other hand, if you create at least one connector object pushed from C++ to QML domain, I find it easier to use QtDbus interfaces on C++ side and just push the results12:22
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smoku_nad6234: see
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alinrebooted and lost gtalk12:31
nad6234smoku_: cheers12:31
alinif i go to presence I do not see under controlled service the gmail account... funnily enough all is fine with the gmail mail12:32
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alinok... is there any way to play with default + gst fluendo this in sailfish
alinwhen I play it with vlc all it claims to need is this [0x261f228] access_http access: Raw-audio server found, m4a demuxer selected14:10
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tbrwhy fluendo?14:11
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alintbr: fluendo is for mp3...14:20
alintbr: shall not ne needed in this case... iirc... just mentioned to give a true picture of the environment14:20
tbra) this isn't mp3, b) there are other decoders14:21
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tbrtry on desktop, if it works there, it can be made to work on the device14:21
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alintbr: works on desktop... amarok plays it14:48
alintbr: i have installed the jolla player just did not find a way to pass it that link14:49
tbralin: then it will work on the phone, provided all necessary gst plugins are available14:49
tbrThe jolla player itself might not know how to cope with that14:49
tbrI've seen open source internet radio apps though. Should be easy enough to take that and run with it14:49
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tbralin: you're off topic over there18:27
tbralin: I'd recommend to look at getting it to work on your desktop with gst-launch18:27
alintbr: woeks18:28
tbralso I'd recommend to use gst-inspect on the device to find out which codecs are actually available18:28
alintbr: this is how I tested18:28
tbrlast time you said amarok, which is _not_ gst-launch18:28
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alintbr: yes but since I tested more18:29
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tbrwell, with proper verbosity that should tell you which codecs it uses18:29
alintbr: the only thing I am afraid is that I am using gstreamer 1.0 on my machine18:31
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alintbr: solved... looking on the wrong place18:47
alintbr: that will be tricky the stream is packaged in a pls18:47
alintbr: now i need a player who knows to play that...18:48
tbrpls is a playlist format18:48
alintbr: yes...18:48
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tbrso what's the problem about that?18:48
tbrit's trivial to parse18:48
alintbr: but the player need to be smart... I remember years back even amarok was tripped by it18:48
alintbr: i tried a five star player and it does not do it18:49
tbralin: how should I put it. Most players on the jolla are tested with files not with streaming.18:49
alintbr: yap... this is exactly the situation with the desktop ones few years back...18:50
tbrI'd recommend to extract the URL from the PLS file and feed that to a player known to support streaming18:50
* tbr shrugs18:50
alintbr: yap... I am afraid this is what I will do...18:51
alintbr: unfortunately they change the uri inside from time to time18:51
alintbr: plus the uri looks like... uri=
alinI had a trick years back for this... I will have to dug some old hdd18:53
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smokudid anyone reimplemented already meego qml components like QueryDialog etc?19:01
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alintbr: solved... needed to use to shorten the url...19:12
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elcaset <--- Smashing!20:41
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mysteriousHi, I heared that Sailfish OS has been unofficially announced to support older Samsung Smartphones. Does anyone have a clue if this will include the first Galaxy S? --- Performance is probably too low, isn't it?23:57

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