Thursday, 2014-09-25

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Nicd-yay, arch already has a fix for it :)05:11
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coderusI need two testers for Mitakuuluu: 1 who can quickly reproduce cpu bug, 2 who have no_routes error during registration.07:38
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zGrrmoin :)08:00
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Hartzicoderus: well I have produced cpu bug 2 times in normal use during last two days and I ever had no_routes error :P08:04
Merbot`Mer bug 2 in Other "ldd does not work in build environment" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
DevBot`Bug normal, Undecided, ---, carsten.munk, RESOLVED FIXED, ldd does not work in build environment08:04
DevBot`Bug 2: normal, Undecided, ---, carsten.munk, RESOLVED FIXED, ldd does not work in build environment08:04
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coderusstupid bots :D08:09
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dr_gogeta86veskuh, hi08:38
dr_gogeta86wanna replicate browser glitch08:39
dr_gogeta86open two simple tab08:39
dr_gogeta86on second tab open jolla website e begin to scroll ... animated divs become glitchy08:39
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coderusdr_gogeta86: on latest sailfish-browser build with gecko31?08:42
* inte installed the beta-browser from openrepos and that seems really buggy08:43
intehas this glitch on every second page08:43
inteI also installed the cutnpaste addon for the experimantal browser08:43
intebut i couldnt figure out how to use it...08:43
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coderusinte: on openrepos browser is very out of date. it's even older than  update8 one, you shouldn't use it :)08:45
inteoh ok :)08:45
intehey, wasnt it you who put it up there?08:45
coderusinte: install patchmanager and apply installed patches :)08:45
coderusthats all you need.08:46
inteah cool thanks08:46
inteso i just need to disable the repo and reinstall the browser right?08:46
coderusinte sure, but i have no time to rebuild browser now.08:46
coderusinte: yes, browser and all its components08:46
intemy imagination of "nightly" was rather something "daily" in the first point :)08:47
intedont worry, just kidding :)08:47
coderuswell, it shoould be so, but unfortunately i have no time to keep it up to date now08:47
coderusthats why i just created patches for now08:47
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intedont worry your doing so much and great work anyways08:48
inteand the stock browser does its job quite well08:48
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r0kk3rzcoderus: need to write a build script that watches for git commits09:06
r0kk3rzthen builds and uploads to openrepos09:06
r0kk3rzthen you'll have a proper nightly09:07
r0kk3rzsurely something already exists09:09
satmdI guess this has been asked before09:17
satmdsailfishos (on the jolla) is vulnerable to the bash exploit09:17
satmdwho shall I contact about this?09:17
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r0kk3rzsatmd: they know about it09:18
stephgwe think it is and we think they know09:18
Nicd-00:28:21 AardNaranek: will probably be fixed in u909:18
Aardand it seems the patches out so far don't fully patch it.
r0kk3rzthat sucks09:23
Nokiustbr: Hi where is the sowatch which works with the Sailfish I know its still a WIP but iirc its bit usefull already can you give me a hind :)09:24
tbrNokius: javispedro put it on OBS IIRC, check his home repo09:25
Nokiustbr: nice thanks09:26
tbrssu ar salmeta https://...09:26
tbrIt works already very well for me09:26
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Nokiustbr: will give it a try09:28
coderussatmd: oh, vulnerability? do you have a working exploit for this? :D09:28
tbrcoderus: all over the web09:29
coderusr0kk3rz: openrepos will have obs integration soon.09:29
tbrI expect this and the NSS bug, which is IMHO much more dangerous to be fixed in next weeks update09:29
r0kk3rzcoderus: that sounds cool09:30
coderusr0kk3rz: featres are under testing, but i havd webhook bugs in obs and gave it up for a while :)09:30
Nokiustbr: mh09:36
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Nokiustbr: pkcon retuns a missing so …. so no luck for me …09:46
tbrNokius: you need to install libgato from the same repository09:47
tbrNokius: he might not have spelled out the dependency09:48
Stskeepstbr: i'm starting to wonder if somebody out there is watching our release schedule and releasing big bad things when we're in last phases before releases..09:49
Stskeepsit's happened a little too often now :)09:49
stephgapropos of nothing I've just come across this:
stephgparticularly like the unit tests09:50
tbrStskeeps: well, still in time and both should be fairly low impact. so feel lucky that it's just some retesting09:50
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Stskeepsnss -> rpm -> everything09:50
Aardwe had nss for u8 already as well, I think. that's basically "commit, and go do something else for a day"09:53
Stskeeps comes to mind09:54
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Aardstephg: it sounds like something I could use to reduce my agressions when I have to work stuff written in python09:59
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nh1402Rather a strange question, but I was wondering what your opinion would be on a software development team name being "Crapp Software", with aims to release apps under than name. I'm personally vehemently against such a group name as it's not professional, and could be shied away from releasing apps purely because of the group name10:28
Wntand what benefits would that kind of name bring?10:30
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Stskeepsnh1402: does anybody look at the authors of apps these days?10:30
SpeedEvilName recognition.10:31
zGrrthere is quite interesting russian page10:31
Nicd-nh1402: hehehehe, I am currently developing an app for Sailfish called WeeCRApp10:31
zGrrgovnokod stands for shitcode :)10:31
Nicd-but it probably won't make it through harbour QA with that name :P10:31
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tbrpfff, nothing measures up to me putting my toilet on twitter! ;)10:32
cos-QA team is finnish, so i believe they have quite thick skin on offensive stuff10:32
Nicd-yeah, but jolla customers might not10:33
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Wnttbr: :D did you make it to the frontpage of slashdot?10:33
nh1402Another thing is I'm working on an app myself, and once released, I would add it to the CV, and don't really know how it will swing with potential employers10:34
entilyou learn something new every day... I thought "dermo" was russian for shit, but I guess it makes sense there'd be many words :D10:34
entilgowno is polish anyway, so that's close10:34
BasilSemuonoventil, that word can be used in variety of cases, and Govno Inc. is a registered company ;)10:37
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nh1402So you're saying it doesn't really matter10:40
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stephgNicd-: yup10:47
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r0kk3rzyeah well like the systemd fork called uselessd11:03
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tbrWnt: yes, that was my sh*t on the /. frontpage, so to say. ;)11:39
r0kk3rzhah you're the toilet meter guy, internet is a small place sometimes11:47
tbrr0kk3rz: and according to finnish yellow press my push notification service for sailfish will use the "toilet protocol" ;)11:49
tbr(I'm using MQTT in both)11:49
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r0kk3rzhaha thats hilarous11:49
tbrI found that statement mildly funny and didn't object11:49
tbrtheir article over all was _very_ well done11:50
r0kk3rztechnically correct too11:50
r0kk3rzwhich is the best kind of correct11:50
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r0kk3rzhmm its annoying to google 'Tracker' because its such a commonly used word for other things12:36
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Nokius1tbr: wow so much new :) javispedro thx!13:34
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Nokius1tbr: javispedro is there a new firmware needed on the meta?13:36
tbrNokius1: running 1.5.3 is recommended13:36
Nokius1tbr oh have 1.35 :P13:37
tbrupdate tiem! ;)13:37
kimmolitbr: caution with those phrases13:37
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tbryeah, I'm sure some people just had an heart attack13:38
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Nokiusah new webpage ...13:39
javispedroNokius, do you have MW prototype, or the final sales one?13:45
Nokiushope final ^^13:47
javispedroprototype was the one sold via TexasInstruments store13:47
javispedroif you ahve final then yeah update to the latest one13:47
javispedroyep, that's final too13:48
NokiusI love this Windows tool13:49
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javispedrowell it just sends some file over a serial port13:52
javispedroit would be trivial to port13:52
Nokiusah need a driver13:53
javispedroI don't think so13:54
javispedrojust need a program that speaks the protocol13:55
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Nokiusthey told this on there support page (blue clip)13:57
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Nokiuswill try it later watch stays in Firmware update rady mode14:01
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tbrthe "driver" is just a plain FTDI usb-serial driver14:09
tbrlinux has that already14:09
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coderustalking about resoring mmcblk0p28 backup back to device14:29
coderusthere is only way is using ext4/btrfs formatted sd card?14:29
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satmdcoderus: like other people stated, the bash exploit is all over the web: CVE-2014-627115:10
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inte`fedora is bash15:51
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coderussatmd: so, whaere is exploit for Sailfish?16:04
satmdnone for sailfishos in general, but potentially for any application using bash and setting variables based on user/remote input16:06
satmdthe exploit for other platforms is the same16:07
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satmdjust the attack vector is different16:07
inte`i read that it could be even utilized remotly through a malicious dhcp-answer16:07
inte`could be bad if the jolla wifi could be attact through hotspots16:08
inte`is it patched on sf already?16:08
satmdthat too16:08
inte`updated my fedora desktop last night16:09
inte`or, well today in the morning16:09
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Morpog_PC__it will be fixed in update 916:15
Morpog_PC__next week probably16:15
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inte`ok. is it actually prooven dhcpd could be an attack vector? Then, no public wifi until next week?16:23
inte`thanks anyways16:23
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coderusMitakuuluu v0.8.9 released. CPU fastfix and more: Check for updates
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merlin1991coderus: this probably silly, but i didn't find where i change my profile oic in mitäkuuluumitäkuuluu17:02
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coderusmerlin1991: in account page of course17:08
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merlin1991coderus: now for the hard question, where do i find it?17:11
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coderusmerlin1991: you can find it where picture17:15
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piggzin a qtquick2applicationviewer application, how can i force landscape on sailfish?18:27
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piggzr0kk3rz: its not a silica app18:29
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piggzits a plain qquickview18:29
r0kk3rzits probably the same18:30
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r0kk3rzyeah it is18:36
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louisdkI've been playing with the SDK and found out that GNU tools like bash, tar, cp etc. is all in older versions licensed under GPL2 from about 2007. Why don't uses the newest upstream versions? Does Jolla have something against GPLv3?20:04
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w00tlouisdk: mer (and jolla) don't accept anything with (L)GPLv3 licensing, yes20:11
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louisdkw00t, any explanation to that choice?20:14
w00tlouisdk: the license is pretty widely considered inappropriate to those wanting to make devices20:15
louisdkw00t, do to GPLv3 strong focus against patents?20:16
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keithzgThat's rather depressing. I guess now that everything has to be manufactured in China, we've lost the patent provision battle.20:23
keithzgBut it's not like you're linking against bash, so why would GPLv3 not be acceptable for GNU utilities like that?20:24
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wmaroneit's probably also the anti-tivoization aspects. It's generally bad for those who want to make devices that control their users.20:25
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w00t is a good read on some related issues20:26
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r0kk3rzfancy licences are all well and good20:36
keithzgw00t: Sure (although I think some of the later interpretations of the GPLv3 have disproven or questioned some of Linus' old conclusions there, but anyways), but how does that apply to just shipping bash?20:36
r0kk3rzbut has anyone heard of a case where GPL type licences have been protected?20:36
r0kk3rzi havent...20:36
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keithzg(Also, I think in Linus' post he's taking certain morals he has for granted, and thus not noticing they're enforced by the GPLv2. Again, though, somewhat besides the point of " why not still ship bash?")20:38
keithzg(Anyways, all these issues will be solved when we move over to copyleft-next ;) )20:40
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M4rtinKwell I kinda can understand it in Mer (vendors might want to use it in Tivoized devices)20:58
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M4rtinKand Jolla wants as many people using Mer as possible of course20:58
M4rtinKbut I can't really come with any reason for not having newer version (not only of Bash) in Sailfish itself other than:20:59
M4rtinK"we don't want to QA two branches"20:59
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keithzgBut eventually it'll get even worse, when the GPLv2 versions of the GNU utils stop getting patches.21:02
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keithzgAlso, I find it weird that Apache is okay for manufacturers then because it also has patent grants, although I'm probably just forgetting some distinction between how it works in Apache and GPLv3 respectively, and I guess if manufacturers wanting to tivo-ize is the primary concern that'd be a tangental point anyways.21:03
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M4rtinKisn't Apache just a fancier BSD ?21:05
M4rtinKeq. you can just take it all and incorporate it into your proprietary garbage ?21:05
keithzgYeah . . . and the fancier part is patent provisions!21:05
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keithzgAnd AOSP does indeed use ASL2.0, which has those provisions.21:07
M4rtinKand that's why we have all those unupdatable hacked together binary only ROMs  :)21:08
keithzgIn that sense, ironically, GPLv2 is more permissive.21:08
keithzgYup, because Google wants a license that gives them legal shielding from being sued by contributors to Android, but doesn't really care too much if users can't actually modify their own devices :(21:09
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keithzgIn fact, in the ability to restrict users from modifying their devices is spun as a positive (and of course, it IS hard to get OEMs and carriers behind you otherwise).21:10
keithzgBut of course personally, I read "to minimize the burden on these companies" and I don't exactly find sympathy for the companies!21:11
M4rtinKexactly :)21:11
M4rtinKone more reason a copyleft licensed mobile OS needs to steamroll the rest21:12
M4rtinKpreferably Sailfish OS :)21:12
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M4rtinKthinking about it, Canonical with their CLA might be similarly problematic as Android21:13
stephggood evening guys21:13
M4rtinKnot to such regard, but still21:13
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M4rtinKthey could dual license the CLAed components to others under some restrictive license21:14
keithzgYeah, I think the CLA largely exists for the exact same reason, so that OEMs and carriers can modify Ubuntu Phone without being at all public.21:14
keithzgIt restricts Canonical to also releasing sources under the terms of whatever license the code is under, but they can pass the code to third parties under any license they feel like.21:15
keithzgHence why the KDE contributors weren't feeling okay with adopting LightDM for the Wayland transition, and have gone over to SDDM instead.21:16
Aardproblem with going the copyleft route is that a lot of stuff nowadays is gplv3. while I do appreciate its powers against asshole companies who just try to take the components and lock things down it is a problem for companies like us who have no interest in locking things down. stuff like having a secure bootloader, and secure boot, giving you the opportunity to hack that, but then lose the full trust chain is strictly speaking a gplv3 violation21:16
keithzgAard: Welllll, that has been solved rather simply with shim bootloaders.21:18
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Aardkeithzg: it's not that easy in the embedded space where you need to rely on odm bits21:19
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keithzgAard: Fair enough, I'm sure it's way more complicated than I imagine when you're actually dealing with the bottom layer of it all.21:20
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keithzgThe problem comes from the proliferation of component manufacturers who demand their portions of the software stack above remain closed, I suppose.21:24
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Aardyes, plus back then were several companies who closed down their boxes completely and basically went "well, here's the sourcecode, but unfortunately we don't allow you to flash custom firmware on the boxes, so go have fun"21:25
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Aardgplv3 solves that, but as side effect causes issues for companies like us who have no intention locking things down21:25
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keithzgIn theory wouldn't providing users the ability to flash their own keys then make it GPLv3 compliant?21:27
keithzgNot saying that'd be easy or practical.21:27
Aardyes. not practical, unfortunately, unless you have enough money to convince odms of that idea21:27
keithzgYeah. Sigh.21:28
Aardplus bootloader was just one example, there are other scenarios21:28
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keithzgAnd even Google doesn't seem able or perhaps isn't willing to do so for their flagship developer devices.21:28
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keithzgI guess if you're Qualcomm, you get to just dictate the terms.21:30
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M4rtinKwell, the 64 bit arm server spec requires UEFI & secureboot that it off by default & where you can import your own keys21:30
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M4rtinKwould be interesting to see a compliant mobile device or similar mobile spec version :)21:30
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* javispedro quickly goes read backlog21:31
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Aardlet's say we have a contract with some company for some service. this company has api-keys, and demands we protect those. you can't get api-keys unless you pay them a lot of money. we do a plugin for that service in a chain where there's a gplv3 component. we release all sources. if you rebuild it and put that plugin on the device you lose that service due to lack of api-key. how would you solve that?21:31
javispedrois there a problem to solve?21:32
M4rtinKwell, you would not have their service and that's it21:32
keithzgAard, are you sure that losing the service would be a GPL violation? As long as the software itself is functional and it's an external service that's refusing to respond I'm not sure that's true.21:32
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Aardkeithzg: gplv3 specifies that you must be able to recompile the software, and put it onto the device without losing functionality21:33
M4rtinKdon't see why this should relate to license compliance at all21:33
Aardlosing the service would be losing functionality21:33
M4rtinKI think that is a rather broad interpretation21:33
javispedrowhat needs to continue working is the program21:34
keithzgYeah, there are definitely Twitter clients out there under the GPLv3 that would have that exact same issue.21:34
stephgM4rtinK: if you're in Jolla's position you want to be the test case?21:34
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javispedrothey're the test case of a shitton of things already21:35
javispedrothings I'd much more worried about21:35
AardM4rtinK: the problem is, the license text can be interpreted that way (we went though that more than once with lawyers). if it will be interpreted like this when you're getting sued is a different matter21:35
javispedrolibhybris and generally ripping off android internals comes to mind21:35
stephgjavispedro: legal ones? with scary land-sharks (with money) on the other side?21:35
M4rtinKjavispedro: exactly21:35
Aardthing is, it is risky, and as basically every odm worries about gplv3 because of that you lose potential partners if you still use gplv3 (which I assume is one reason why it took so long for canonical to find an odm)21:36
M4rtinKBTW, just look at gitorious21:36
stephg(not trying to be provocative, merely curious)21:36
M4rtinKtheyr codebase is AGPLv321:36
w00tI don't think the people in this channel is necessarily the ones you need to convince21:36
keithzgThe number of GPL lawsuits isn't exactly many (and generally is restricted to those who have standing to sue, which generally ends up meaning those who hold copyright on the code). I honestly doubt Bradley Kuhn would take legal action against a company trying to ship a GPLv3 device!21:36
M4rtinKand nobody wants them to release their config files, their user database, etc.21:36
javispedrostephg: they're shipping the FAT code. I ponder were the MS sharks are swimming around.21:36
w00tthe fact is that this is just how the companies in this space are thinking, and operating now21:36
M4rtinKand I would need that to have the same functionality as !21:36
w00tand generally, that is that the moment "GPLv3" gets mentioned, they start running away very fast21:36
* javispedro sighs21:37
javispedroyou could very well be saying this argument for the "GPL" in general21:37
stephgFAT is a special case IMO, anything else?21:37
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w00tjavispedro: no, the success of the linux kernel is evidence that that is not happening21:37
w00t.. hmph21:37
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w00tjavispedro: no, the success of the linux kernel is evidence that that is not happening21:37
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Aardjavispedro: we're not shipping exfat because of licensing issues ;)21:38
* javispedro notes it's sadly not coincidental the one project with the most lenient gpl2 interpretation is the one having "success"21:38
M4rtinKactually, you could just buy a license for it like for the codecs and other blobs, right ? :)21:39
w00tjavispedro: you can believe I'm wrong if that makes you happier, I'm just speaking from experience21:39
javispedroobviously I believe you're wrong21:39
w00t(ironically, even today I had another call where the discussion of "GPLv3 caused our partners to get scared" came up in the conversation)21:39
AardM4rtinK: there are a lot of bits you're using in a phone where you could have licenses for ;)21:39
javispedrothe same way I believe the "lawyers who get scared when GPL is mentioned" from less than 2-3 years ago are wrong21:40
w00tjavispedro: I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, I'm saying that it happens21:40
keithzgw00t: I don't doubt that you have companies running away as soon as the GPLv3 is mentioned; we just doubt they're scared for rational reasons!21:40
Aardkeithzg: I agree that >90% of the worries about gplv3 are wrong. there are a few corner cases where it can bite 'friendly' users, though21:41
javispedrothere's lots and lots of FUD the same way they were lots of FUD before the Google's slight GPL approximation21:41
w00tI think linus' opinions about GPLv3 are really the best (and least hyperbolic) I've heard21:41
M4rtinKand it just boils down that the current licensing mess turns most current mobile devices quite to paperweights21:41
javispedroand YES I would expect Jolla to be one of the companies that would be first to dispel them21:42
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javispedroI'm obviously not the CEO nor even a stockholder and thus can't complain.21:42
M4rtinKperfectly fine nice devices stuck to half broken firmware without an option to update, that's the root issue21:42
M4rtinKand GPLv3 is one of the things that could improve the situation21:43
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w00tM4rtinK: and I'd say that the solution to that is not forcing it through licensing, but free market21:43
keithzgAard: That's probably true, although I suspect even most of the remaining worries are, in practice, not worth worrying about. None of the handful of folks who go after GPL violations aren't going to waste their time on a small company that's trying as hard as possible as Jolla is, for example.21:43
Aardjavispedro: we've not given up on eventually starting to use gplv3 (plus we use gplv3 in components which are not flashed on the device, but later loaded from store)21:43
w00tbut that same opinion is why I also don't tend to license my code under GPLv321:43
keithzgThat's all fair enough. And entirely fair for Jolla to be timid about stepping into tricky waters.21:44
M4rtinKw00t: same thing :)21:44
* keithzg just wishes, is all :)21:44
javispedrow00t: sadly that seems the GPL vs BSD argument again, and "free market" has shown its preference quite often21:45
w00tjavispedro: and I'm OK with that21:45
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AardI was quite pro gplv3 before I spent two years building a device where I directly had to deal with licensing issues. now my preference is gplv221:45
keithzgw00t: I can't say I am. The free market has, time and time again, shown itself to be mostly rule by fear and short-term self-interest.21:46
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* bjorn will just get some sleep.21:47
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keithzgM4rtinK: Are you sure actually about the ARM 64-bit server spec requiring the ability to import you own keys?21:51
keithzg just says "If Secure Boot is implemented, it must conform to the UEFI 2.4B specification for Secure Boot. There are no additional requirements for Secure Boot."21:51
M4rtinKkeithzg: I'm pretty sure that they mentioned it needs to be off by default21:52
M4rtinKindeed I'm a bit less sure about the keys now21:52
M4rtinKit was mentioned in one of the USEFI/Secure boot talk on Flock21:53
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M4rtinKI think it might have been the one by Adam Williamson21:56
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M4rtinKvoted, proceeding to spread on social media :)21:59
javispedroand don't blame me when I put that link on twitter, it's all your fault for adding a gigantic "share on twitter" button =)21:59
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keithzgI'm actually pretty convinced by Aard that at the present day, it's not really practical for the entire device stack to be GPLv3. But I've voted anyways, since it definitely is worth noting that many folks use and olve SailfishOS because of a desire to see a truly free alternative in the mobile space, and any work that Jolla can do towards that is sincerely appreciated.22:01
javispedroI was listening to stevie's "superstition" during the above discussion -- quite appropriate :)22:01
javispedrokeithzg: obviously not, if you make the entire stack GPLv3 _then_ you may have the "what about twitter keys" problem above22:02
javispedrobut you can make that single binary "GPLv3 + jolla's we-do-what-we-must-because-we-can exception"22:02
javispedrosince you'd own the copyright :P22:02
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M4rtinKretweets welcome:
M4rtinKI really think that key argument is bullshit22:05
keithzgStill not sure about the Twitter app key issue; there are, after all, a number of GPLv3 clients.22:05
M4rtinKI consider that to be stuff that goes to configuration files and that's it22:05
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stephgM4rtinK no retweet but a new follower :)22:07
javispedroyeah I don't get the twitter argument either22:08
javispedroamong other things you might as well just make it propietary22:08
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javispedrothe "mere aggregation" rule (which has been proven many times) means that even if the rest of the OS is GPLv3 the twitter client is not forced to be GPLv322:09
M4rtinKstephg: thanks :)22:09
keithzgI admit that it's the kind of thing that a lawyer unfamiliar with the GPL and/or the FOSS community might bring up as a theory (lawyers being a fearful bunch, prone to panic and extreme conservativism), but I don't think it actually jives under any reasonable interpretation.22:09
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stephgoh I'm going potty22:26
stephgbugfix pls; impossible to take picture of jolla & n4 with lock screens in the dark with a real camera due to the display sleeping raaaaaah22:27
stephg(first world problems)22:27
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