Wednesday, 2014-12-17

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SirCmpwncan I install sailfish on a samsung galaxy s5? Or is it just nexus devices01:08
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jcbjoe__SirCmpwn: go to #sailfishos-porters01:20
jcbjoe__SirCmpwn: -
SirCmpwnthanks jcbjoe__01:21
SirCmpwnanother question: can I install a package manager and use it like a proper GNU/Linux system?01:22
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sandsmarkSirCmpwn: it ships with a package manager06:19
sandsmarkhow do you think it installs applications?06:19
sandsmark(the default is to use the command line interface to packagekit; pkcon)06:19
SirCmpwnI mean a more standard package manager backed by a more standard repository like yum06:19
SirCmpwn+ fedora repos or whatever06:19
sandsmarkit uses rpm06:20
SirCmpwnthe package format, sure06:20
SirCmpwnI want to know if I can yum install nginx on sailfish06:20
sandsmarkif you're not familiar with packagekit, it is an abstraction over normal package managers06:20
tbrand it uses pkcon06:20
sandsmarkI don't know what it runs underneath packagekit (haven't bothered to check)06:20
sandsmarkSirCmpwn: here's a repo with nginx:
tbrSirCmpwn: that's again something different, as nginx would need to have been compiled to match the sailfishos environment. neither fedora nor RH are binary compatible06:21
SirCmpwnthanks folks06:21
* tbr would probably take a rpm spec for nginx and rebuild it on OBS06:22
sandsmarkyeah, there's several third-party repos for sailfish on openrepos.net06:22
SirCmpwnit looks like I can get a toolchain fairly easily so compiling stuff wouldn't be too hard06:22
sandsmarkSirCmpwn: the easiest is to use OBS06:22
sandsmarkat least if you're building a large amount of packages06:22
SirCmpwnopen build system?06:22
tbras with OR, I have to trust that what was uploaded is matching the source. with OBS, I can check and prove that06:22
tiwakecompile and package all the things for sailfishOS06:23
SirCmpwnwhich init system does sailfish use? Refrain from flaming06:23
SirCmpwnI might consider seeing if I can get something working with arch packages (my distro of choice), then06:23
tbrdoes arch use RPM?06:23
sandsmarkit uses libalpm tarballs06:24
tbrthen it will hardly work06:24
SirCmpwncan I not write to /usr/bin and such?06:24
sandsmarkwell, you could probably do a takeover06:24
SirCmpwndoes rpm get pissy if you install stuff into /usr without telling it06:24
tbrrunning two different package managers that are unaware of each other, what could possibly go wrong06:24
SirCmpwnalso, I could just use /usr/local/ or something else06:24
SirCmpwnI can't imagine any of this being too particularly difficult to get cooperation out of06:25
sandsmarkyou could try to replace sailfishos with alarm, just repackaging everything needed :p06:25
sandsmarkbut I'm not entirely sure why you would do that (except for fun)06:25
SirCmpwnbut I want the AUR :D~06:25
SirCmpwnand also fun06:25
tbragain, whatever you install must match the environment. so you likely won't be able to take random packages from arch arm builds06:25
SirCmpwnmostly fun, actually06:25
SirCmpwnthe AUR contains software that is built on the system it's being installed to06:26
SirCmpwnthe official repos use the same system, so you can compile any package locally with one command06:26
sandsmarkwell, the spectacle .yaml files that OBS uses aren't that complicated06:26
sandsmarkunlike the traditional .spec files06:26
sandsmark(the reason I run arch is partly because PKGBUILD files are dead easy to write)06:27
SirCmpwnout of curiosity, what makes it binary incompatible?06:27
SirCmpwnyou kind of have to try to make your GNU/Linux system binary incompatible06:27
sandsmarkdifferent versions of libraries?06:27
sandsmarklibraries are (mostly) backwards compatible, not forward compatible (that would be interesting :p)06:27
SirCmpwnthat doesn't really count06:27
SirCmpwnI thought you were implying that they ditched elf or something06:28
tbrif you are compiling on the device, it will compile against the right stuff06:28
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tbrwhile all this is possible, it's going to be really messy, like installing lots of -devel packages to get necessary headers06:29
SirCmpwnor you could just upgrade the relevant libraries in the rpm-controlled enviornment06:29
SirCmpwnarch took the sane route of distributing headers in the same package :)06:29
tbrand probably break the system so that the phone won't boot, yeah06:29
SirCmpwnprobably not06:30
tbrsounds like arch is the ideal distro for constrained space and CPU environments then *snerk*06:30
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SirCmpwnheaders are like two bytes each06:30
SirCmpwnthey are the smallest part of basically every package by a large margin06:30
sandsmarktbr: cpu doesn't matter, and the headers are like a couple of kilobytes :p06:30
sandsmarkconsidering that modern phones ship with gigabytes of internal storage it doesn't really matter06:31
SirCmpwnyou can probably cross compile pretty darn easily anyway06:31
tbrsandsmark: I was refering to constrained environments, like 10M RAM and 32M flash06:31
SirCmpwnjust coping over your root filesystem somewhere else and do stuff in a jail would probably work well enough06:31
sandsmarktbr: there you want a dedicated cross-compiling toolchain anyways, and not build natively06:32
tbrSirCmpwn: if you want to go down the arch route, I'd recommend using a chroot or such, keep things cleaner06:32
tbrsandsmark: no sh*t sherlock06:32
SirCmpwnwell, when the tablet comes in, I want to try being productive with it06:32
SirCmpwnthe reason I haven't gotten any other tablets is because I can't really be productive on android or ios06:32
SirCmpwnbut a full blown GNU/Linux system, that'd be excellent06:32
tbrnote that there won't be an X.org06:32
sandsmarkSirCmpwn: try to see if you can get this done with ALARM, maybe?:
SirCmpwnxorg is the least important part of the mix, tbr06:33
SirCmpwnand I bet I could get it running anyway06:33
sandsmarkwouldn't be trivial, you'd need drivers06:33
tbrSirCmpwn: javispedro got the xorg compat mode running, sort of06:33
SirCmpwnjust display drivers, right?06:33
sandsmarkhow? using the vesa driver or something?06:33
sandsmarkSirCmpwn: yes06:33
SirCmpwnwhat kind of back assward display could they be using that would need some kind of special drivers to use06:34
sandsmarkyou could try with freedreno or similar, though06:34
sandsmarkSirCmpwn: GPU06:34
SirCmpwnsurely some sort of legacy mode works06:34
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sandsmarkwell, ARM devices...06:34
SirCmpwnhmm, good point, I don't know enough about the arm scene to be confident06:34
tbrraw framebuffer, fun fun06:35
sandsmarkah, yeah, you might get it up with fbdev06:35
SirCmpwnI have run xorg on an ARM device that I seriously doubted I could get xorg running on in the past06:35
SirCmpwnthe TI-Nspire CX06:36
SirCmpwnI have a calculator hobby :)06:36
sandsmarkyeah, interesting device to run X11 on :p06:36
SirCmpwnnow if only I could get it running on my z80-based calculators06:36
tiwakelol, z8006:38
SirCmpwnsailfish does its thing on wayland, right06:38
sandsmarkusing libhybris and android drivers06:38
SirCmpwnhas anyone done some research into what closed source stuff is hanging out on the device, what it does, etc06:39
SirCmpwnI'm wondering if it'd be possible to package them up and bring them to a different base system06:39
tbryes, there is a wiki page06:39
tbrlook at the HADK06:39
tbrit's essentially what you are thinking of06:39
SirCmpwnunder what license are the closed source bits distributed06:40
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sandsmarkvarying, I think06:44
SirCmpwnhow about the "you can pick this up and give it to other people" license06:44
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tbrSirCmpwn: read the HADK, it covers all this06:46
SirCmpwnokay, thank you06:46
tbrresulting community builds are distributable under those conditions06:47
tbrotherwise wouldn't exist06:47
SirCmpwnCC by-nc-sa is at the bottom of that file06:49
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SirCmpwnis that the file's license or the license of the actual system?06:49
SirCmpwnyeah, that's the only thing I see in this document that could be about that06:52
tbryou'll probably get questions about that answered on #sailfishos-porters06:54
SirCmpwnright, thanks06:54
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ArmadilloQA is getting slow ahead Christmas :D07:56
Armadilloto many cookies? :)07:56
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nazaninArmadillo: hhm, do you see your app locked?07:59
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Armadillohas been locked on monday only a few hours after it has been submitted by me07:59
nazaninArmadillo: ah, I reviewed it on the same day and approved it. lemme check with our store guys08:00
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Armadillothanks :)08:00
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Armadilloso the QA was quite fast and the store is already in the christmas holidays :D08:03
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nazaninArmadillo: not really :p due to some new Harbour changes, there are chances that some minor issues happen ;)08:05
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ArmadilloI assumed something like that :)08:06
Armadillobut thanks to your great support all of the problems are being solved fast :)08:07
Armadilloonly one question: should I react earlier if the app is locked more than 12 hours?08:08
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nazaninArmadillo: :) the limit to test apps and push them out is within 48 hours; depending on the queuewe have it may take just some hours, or it might take 48 hours. so I would say if you still see your app locked *after* 48 hours, you sure can ping Harbour QA and we check the situation08:13
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Armadillonazanin roger :)08:14
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coderusMazeLock patch updated to v0.0.2:
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nadleymorning all :D09:14
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hoodlummorning mate09:23
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stephgmorning guys10:11
Stskeepsmorn stephg10:11
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zGrrmoin :)10:49
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nazaninArmadillo: check your app now :)11:14
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Armadillonazanin great, thank you :)11:28
nazaninArmadillo: ;)11:28
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Armadillonazanin and thanks for the usage hints! ;)11:43
nazaninArmadillo: no problem :)11:44
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coderusMazeLock patch updated to 0.0.3:
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mekluaww, 32-bit userland :(13:48
Stskeepsotoh, less ram usage13:48
meklueh, could've gone for -mx32 in that case13:48
ikarusand you can mix and match easily enough13:48
mekluand you'd get nicer timestamps13:48
mekluwell, it looks like you'd have to ship your own libc etc. to get a 64-bit thing running13:49
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mekluthankfully wayland is a protocol rather than an API...13:49
Stskeepsx32 is lovely if the blobs you use are also :P13:49
mekluheh, yeah13:49
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meklulibGL{ES} is 32-bit too, right?13:50
ikarusmeklu: yeah, but it is easily shimmed13:50
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ikarusI've done such stupidity before13:50
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Stskeeps64-bit stuff should work, but don't expect anything to utilize blobby stuff13:51
aknightso is it using mesa like the other android-on-intel solutions i've seen?13:51
Stskeepsaknight: they aren't actually using mesa on android IA products13:51
Stskeepsthey're using some UFO thing13:51
ikarusfor me shipping your own libc in the package wouldn't be too painful, but I know some other countries don't have decent internet13:51
meklujust ship musl! :D13:51
mekluthat should certainly fit13:52
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ikarusIt depends on the GPU Intel uses, because they have two GPUs for Atom, one based on PowerVR and one Intel HD Graphics and I forgot to check this one was13:52
ikarusthe PowerVR one doesn't work with mesa13:52
Stskeepsthis might work with mesa, but i've not tried yet13:52
mekluit said intel hd graphics on the cpu product page13:52
mekludo it, for science? :)13:53
mekluyou can always flash back the extraterrestrial solution13:53
ikarusmeklu: uh, yeah, but they market both as HD Graphics13:53
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ikarusmeklu: but only one design is ACTUALLY Intel HD Graphics13:53
mekluikarus: hmm, that sucks13:53
ikarusthe other one is just licensed from PowerVR13:53
mekluikarus: it's starting to sound too much like poulsbo here13:54
ikarusand is similar to the GPU cores used on ARM processors13:54
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ArmadilloStskeeps interesting article :)14:04
Stskeepsthanks.. lots more to come14:04
Armadillosounds good ;)14:05
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aknightcrowd-funded tech journalism? ;-)14:05
meklutech, journalism14:07
meklupick one14:08
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SK_workthanks for the article Stskeeps14:16
SK_workthe uefi thing puzzles m14:16
Stskeepsit's a bit more complex than how things are done on arm14:16
SK_workwhat's done on ARM ?14:16
SK_workis ARM "less secure" ?14:16
Stskeepsno, just done differently, there's more possibilities to 'lock down'14:17
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Stskeepswhereas pc has more tradition for 'open' devices14:17
meklusigned PE dummy binaries... *hrr*14:18
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m4g0gI have c++ class with access to api of the service. How can I give to every page access to it? Is it normal to register class in qml and create in every page Api {id: api} ?14:35
m4g0gor there is a better way to achieve this?14:35
SK_workm4g0g: put it in your ApplicationWindow14:36
SK_workand give it an id like id: api14:36
SK_workuse api in all other pages14:36
SK_workshould work14:36
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Stskeepshello TMavica14:47
TMavicacoming soon, lol14:49
Stskeepsah right, to finland14:50
Stskeepsi'm just preparing for my vacation14:50
Stskeepswell, staycation14:51
simbrownhow do I tell which version of the SDK I have installed?14:52
coderussimbrown: tell?14:54
Nicd-simbrown: sdkmaintenancetool, check for updates14:54
Nicd-or package manager14:55
Nicd-will tell you what versions you have installed14:55
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simbrownit tells me that I have 1.0.1-2, is that 1407?14:57
Nicd-1.0.1-2 of what package?14:57
coderussdk-release file14:58
coderusin SailfishOS SDK folder14:58
simbrownSailfishOS SDK is the component name14:58
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simbrowncoderus: Thanks, that file tells me 141014:58
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ryukafalzHey, does anyone know offhand if there's a quick way to reset the build VM to its default state without uninstalling/reinstalling the SDK?16:20
ryukafalzcan't seem to find an option to do so16:20
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coderusryukafalz: reinstall and create snapshot in vm?16:25
coderusbuild vm is fully functional operating system16:25
coderusdoes operating system have button to reset it state? :)16:25
ryukafalzno, but the SDK could have created a snapshot on install ;)16:25
coderusryukafalz: no, thanks16:26
coderusif you want so you need to care it yourself :)16:26
ryukafalzfair enough :P16:26
ryukafalzagh, looks like the problem I'm running into wouldn't have been solved by that anyway16:27
ryukafalzoh, wait16:28
ryukafalzI'm being dumb16:28
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ryukafalzdang case sensitivity tripping me up16:40
ryukafalzI'm not even a new Linux user, what am I doing? XD16:40
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coderusHelp me testing LauncherGrid Advanced + FolderIcons combined patch:
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SK_workcoderus: thought about writing a gui for your dconf keys ?17:03
SK_worka companion app / settings plugin to configure this patch easily ?17:04
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coderusSK_work: yes i have settings applet for my own, will finish and release it a bit later17:08
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Venemohere's a pretty crazy question19:01
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Venemois it possible to run the sailfish build engine on kvm, instead of virtualbox?19:01
Stskeepsbut no shared folders then, you'd have to use another technology19:01
locusf9p exists, but doesn't really work as well as virtualboxes shared folders19:02
Venemoah, didn't imagine it required such stuff19:03
locusfI guess it really doesn't tbh19:03
locusfit just makes devs lives easier19:03
locusfhmm I'm wrong19:03
locusfqtc building uses it quite heavily19:03
coderusVenemo: you can use chroot19:04
Venemocoderus: I know, that's how the mer platform sdk works19:05
coderusthis is the only way to use sdk with no virtualbox i know19:05
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locusfyou can get the target from hadk instructions, if thats all you need19:05
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locusfVenemo: chapter 619:08
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ryukafalzis there a way to disable device lock from the command line if I have SSH access?19:16
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ryukafalzbeidl: unfortunately it doesn't appear the KDE connect protocol is documented much outside of the source, but it seems fairly flexible19:18
coderus/usr/lib/qt5/plugins/devicelock/encpartition --clear-code 1234519:19
ryukafalzwhat's "12345" for?19:19
Morpog_PC__i guess your code19:19
beidlryukafalz: means I'll have to contact the developers when I've got time19:19
ryukafalzMorpog_PC__: ooh boy, well that's the problem :P if it's used to decrypt stuff... hmm19:20
ryukafalzoh, actually that may have worked19:21
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beidlryukafalz: I hope they have plans for routing audio samples. because I'd like the tablet to function both as the desktop and the mobile device, depending on my needs.19:23
ryukafalzbeidl: if not, you can do that with pulseaudio19:23
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beidlryukafalz: I know19:24
beidlryukafalz: there's actually a GUI for that in openrepos19:24
* ryukafalz nods19:24
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newbie007Greetings, could someone make the case to me as to why I should learn SailFishOS opposed to FirefoxOS. Android compatibility has no value to me, and Firefox OS has a much easier learning curve... So what does SailFishOS bring to the table?19:29
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Morpog_PC__better UI/UX, more performance, native code, great SDK19:30
ryukafalznewbie007: For me, it's largely that it's a full linux distribution and has all the capability associated with that. But I'm perhaps a bit of an edge case. :P19:31
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ryukafalzI love being able to SSH to my device and having a full package manager, etc.19:33
newbie007can I drop to a command line and run an ssh command? What about install blender, gimp, abiword, gnumeric etc.. ?19:34
Morpog_PC__enable developer mode and you got terminal installed19:34
ryukafalzTraditional desktop apps generally won't work, as there's no X11 - command line apps will, however.19:34
Morpog_PC__it's wayland based, so not that easy to get desktop apps to run19:35
ryukafalznot that it would be a great experience trying to run blender on a mobile phone anyway ;)19:35
newbie007Another question.. the indigogo campaign had some sort of thing to "unlock" dual screen mode.. I do not understand. This is just a fun lets raise some more money? Dual screen I understand to be some sort of software enhancement to the GUI.. ?19:36
Morpog_PC__not dual screen, splitscreen19:36
Morpog_PC__and yes it's just a software enhancement19:36
Morpog_PC__which they can now prioritize19:37
newbie007Seems like this enhancement would have come around sooner or later either way19:37
Morpog_PC__but Jolla is not Mozilla which can spend millions on dev's and got a huge dev community19:37
beidlnewbie007: but it's coming sooner now rather than later19:37
Morpog_PC__it's a small 100+ employe company19:38
newbie007I'm unfamiliar with "wayland". This is a gui similar to what I understand as X11 perhaps more streamlined for this family of devices?19:38
Morpog_PC__wayland is the successor of x1119:38
Morpog_PC__it will be default on desktops too in some years19:38
beidlto be a little more accurate, wayland is a protocol, which means what X11 did until now compositors do themselves.19:39
newbie007I was a huge maemo fan, as that fades away I am looking for an alternative and latched onto FirefoxOS, which I would categorize as "just-a-phone"19:39
ryukafalzso e.g. on the desktop where you would have kwin and x11, now you would just have kwin19:39
Morpog_PC__well, sailfish should be alot more familiar to you compared to FF OS19:40
ryukafalzand kwin implements the wayland protocol19:40
beidlnewbie007: it is possible to use wayland-capable desktop apps on sailfish, as long as the GUI toolkit is there in compiled form19:40
newbie007So anything that uses kwin could be compiled for sailfishos ?19:40
Morpog_PC__on jolla lipstick implements the wayland protocol19:41
beidlnothing "uses" kwin19:41
ryukafalz(also kwin was an example re: another popular desktop environment)19:41
Morpog_PC__Fedora 21 can use waland from Gnome 3.1419:41
newbie007I see I'm looking in to it now. I am unfamiliar with kwin19:42
Morpog_PC__I think there was a prrof of concept for Xwayland on sailfishos somewhere19:42
ryukafalznewbie007: kwin isn't particularly relevant to sailfish, it's just KDE's window manager19:43
Morpog_PC__there it is:
ryukafalznewbie007: in any case, sailfish is pretty much the closest thing to maemo at this point19:44
Morpog_PC__better link:
ryukafalzMorpog_PC__: ooh, fancy19:44
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newbie007This does sound very promising19:45
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Morpog_PC__but be sure to know, it's just the beginning, they have a long way in front of them19:45
Morpog_PC__there are still lots of bugs19:45
Morpog_PC__but steady updates19:45
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Morpog_PC__oh and the browser is gecko based :D19:46
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newbie007There are a couple of applicaitons from maemo that I hope get ported, I didn't write them. I'm going to reach out to those developers to see if they plan to port to sailfishos (Almost-TI and abiword)19:46
ryukafalzthe biggest issue I have with it is that some parts (the UI mostly) are not open source - but there is work on an open source alternative19:47
ryukafalzbut then, harmattan UI was not open source either so...19:47
newbie007ryukafalz: some parts of what?19:47
newbie007I'd like to know the down and dirty details of why things like this are closed source..19:48
ryukafalzthe core distribution (mer) is open source and jolla contributes heavily, so I'm fine with it overall19:49
beidlthe funny thing is: people would argue that android is more "open" since the framework and everything is open, but in practice that's not the case, talking about OEM modifications, where the only open part is the kernel19:49
Morpog_PC__the UI is closed practically19:49
Morpog_PC__and some jolla core apps19:49
Morpog_PC__and drivers, etc.19:49
beidland since most android system applications are being replaced by proprietary Google-branded apps there is no difference.19:50
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ryukafalzThere was actually an open source meeting recently where topics like this were covered. There's now a page here with open/closed components:
ryukafalzmost of the closed packages are UI and default apps19:50
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Morpog_PC__but if you wish you can replace the UI (silica) with fully open source Glacier UI19:50
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Morpog_PC__built by community19:51
locusferr, replace the homescreen :) ?19:51
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Morpog_PC__thats pretty much the whole UI :D19:51
ryukafalzhomescreen and QML components19:51
ryukafalzthe latter is potentially trickier19:52
Morpog_PC__well, you can get whole nemomobile on Jolla device19:52
* ryukafalz is hoping the "TBD" licensed packages on that wiki page end up open19:52
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ryukafalzparticularly messages19:53
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Morpog_PC__but as newbie007 came from maemo, he should be used to closed stuff19:54
newbie007Mu understanding was that just the screen drivers to maemo were closed19:54
ryukafalzMorpog_PC__: no reason to not want more open software though hmm? ;)19:55
Morpog_PC__ryukafalz, sure19:55
Morpog_PC__newbie007, nope19:55
ryukafalzAlso relevant: which version of Maemo? Harmattan, Fremantle...?19:55
locusfin what ways was Harmattan more open than Fremantle because I completely missed out Harmattan?19:56
Morpog_PC__in none I guess19:56
ryukafalzlocusf: I think it was less open19:56
ryukafalzIIRC Harmattan UI was closed19:57
locusfI remember there was essentially nothing that could be done wrt to ui in fremantle19:57
Morpog_PC__and it was locked down with aegis crap19:57
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locusfchinook and diablo were also closed19:58
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locusfalso remember ryukafalz that the table might be largely changed in u1019:59
Morpog_PC__if u10 just would be ever released :)19:59
locusfsince _a lot_ of hardware adaptation specific packages have been free softwared by Jolla19:59
Morpog_PC__it starts to feel like waiting fpr PR1.3 on N9 :D19:59
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locusfok well depends on the definition of a lot :p19:59
ryukafalzlocusf: I'm certainly looking forward to it :)19:59
locusfoh yeah20:00
locusfsome of the packages are only in mer-hybris repo afaik20:00
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locusfokay the problem really is that the packages _are_ open source, but they can't be built for Jolla usage20:01
ryukafalzhm, like which ones?20:01
Morpog_PC__oh and newbie007 there even is a hw keyboard now made by community, so the jolla is more like the n900 ever20:01
Morpog_PC__latest prototype video:
newbie007is there a list of applicaitons?20:02
Morpog_PC__it was on kickstarter and gained lots of €€€20:02
Morpog_PC__newbie007, not for official store, but you can check openrepos20:03
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locusfryukafalz: pulseaudio-modules-droid, libhybris-sbj packages and hwcomposer20:03
ryukafalzI can see why libhybris-sbj could be a problem but why the other two?20:05
locusfwell it is because pulseaudio-modules-droid-sbj depends on something only found in the sbj (Jolla) android headers, afaik20:06
ryukafalzoh, you left the -sbj off the name before :P20:07
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locusfhmm actually even that is wrong20:08
locusfthe spec file just says %device sbj, nothing else is different20:09
locusfI mean from the other adaptations20:09
ryukafalzahh I see what you mean20:10
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locusfI've tried to build the sbj package for Jolla from Nexus 5 headers and libhardware but it doesn't work in runtime20:11
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* ryukafalz is jealous of Jolla owners now that TOHKBD is coming out20:16
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ryukafalzit reminds me of my old N81020:17
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sledgeslocusf: Nexus 4 headers are much closer to the SoC (nearly 1:1)20:22
locusfsledges: oh ok :)20:22
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urjamanwho the f got the idea to vibrate on low battery -.-... i know its low, would you now just focus on sleeping :|21:52
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ryukafalznow that I think about it I don't think I've ever heard the sailfish low battery tone22:00
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ryukafalzif there is one22:00
ryukafalzwhich is a good thing of course :P22:00
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