Thursday, 2023-02-02

lolekodd, so silent here08:00
flypigHello! It is a bit quiet... let's hope that changes :)08:01
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 202308:01
sailbotMeeting started Thu Feb  2 08:01:21 2023 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:01
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:01
flypigHello everyone! I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please r-e-s-p-e-c-t the timings and find out what it means to me.08:01
flypigWe actually received an enormous number of questions. Thank you! And especially lolek :) But it means I'll have to be super-strict with the timings.08:02
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:02
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:02
lolek#info just a regular user08:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla and the chair today08:02
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ jolla08:02
jojo_#info  jojo regular user08:03
nephros#info nephros, community member, (and bug squishing team)08:03
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:04
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:04
flypigI think the community are going to win today :)08:05
pvuorela#info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla08:05
ExTechOpGood morning, everyone!08:06
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:06
flypigGood morning :)08:06
flypigIt looks like 5-4 to the community, if my fingers are telling-me correctly.08:07
lolekflypig: so we have only one from Jolla?08:07
flypigFour from Jolla: ViGe, sledges, pvuorela and myself :)08:08
flypigLet's move straight on to the questions... we had nine submitted today. Any latecomers, please still feel free to #info yourself later.08:09
flypigIt's a win for the community :)08:09
flypig#topic Sailfish OS system encryption (5 mins -- asked by lolek)08:09
*** sailbot changes topic to "Sailfish OS system encryption (5 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:09
flypig#info <lolek> Current encryption implementation in SFOS is almost useless because of very easy way of breaking it.08:09
flypig#info <lolek> Some time ago there was info that Jolla is working on improving it.08:10
flypig#info <lolek> There's also a community version of a solution made by rinigus to fix this issue.08:10
flypig#info <lolek> When will this get finally fixed/implemented as it's critical from the security point of view.08:10
flypigThanks for your question lolek; I hope I paraphrased it okay. Here's the prepared reply.08:10
flypig#info <Jolla> We recognise this is a feature that many users consider important, and we commend rinigus's work on a community implementation.08:10
flypig#info <Jolla> In fact we've been working on an implementation of alphanumeric security codes for some time, and you can expect it to arrive in the next release.08:10
flypigThat's the answer, hopefully that helps give more clarity lolek?08:11
lolekok, implementing alphanum is something that's good to hear! I know that the team is small etc but do you still consider accepting or using solutions from rinigus as additional solution?08:12
flypigCould you elaborate a little? Is there something from rinigus's solution that you're particularly interested in?08:13
lolekrinigus: maybe you could drop two cents here as you're the author :)08:13
ThaodanSorry a little delayed08:13
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla08:13
flypigGlad you're here Thaodan.08:13
lolekwell he added some extra layer. Please forgive me if I'm messing up things but I think it was related to TPM storage? I'd need to get back to his implementation and see what's there but what's left in my brain is that his work was quite nice and SFOS could really benefit from it. Of course alphanum is also important. Imho these two can perfectly work together and improve it even more08:15
*** thorbjorn_ is now known as bjorn8108:16
flypigOkay, that's interesting, thanks lolek. I'd suggest, see what comes out with the release, and then we can come back to this question again.08:16
lolekflypig of course I know that it's hard to get answer right now so I'm perfectly fine to move this to the next meeting so people from Jolla will have time to analyze this more. Yet tbh I did explicitly mention his work in this question but well.08:16
ThaodanI think he wrote some integration to use the android keystore.08:17
piggz_rinigus solution utilises hwcrypt08:17
piggz_(morning btw)08:17
flypigGood morning :)08:18
lolekThaodan: yes it seems so I'm right now checking that thread08:18
ThaodanSystemd has systemd-cryptsetup which can use in the later versions fido hardware encryption as well as tpms.08:18
lolekhi piggz08:18
lolekok so can't we also use that alongisde with alphanum?08:18
lolekI mean the hwcrypt?08:18
Thaodanpiggz: that integration he wrote = hwcrypt. Which makes you be able to use the android keystore.08:18
piggz_downside of that for jolla i beleive is that it requires waiting for the android side to "come up"08:19
lolekwell that would be good to know what are the problems from jolla side08:19
Thaodansimilar why gis backed rndis doesn't work in the recovery.08:19
flypigI'd personally like to see that, but how long is the wait that you refer to piggz_?08:21
lolekflypig imho this is something that could be discussed easily on forum, maybe even some tests to see "how long" etc08:21
ThaodanPersonally from my own side I think using pgp or a fido key is the best solution that comes from the userspace. On x86 the tpm which is the equivalent of the Android key store is low level and has free software tools avaiable to acess it making using it a non issue if you trust it.08:22
piggz_flypig: well, not long ... i use it on most of my ports and dont notice it08:22
ThaodanIf there was something similar for the keystore it would be much easier to use from our side.08:22
flypigOkay, thanks for clarifying.08:22
ThaodanI think for some ports it's ok to have to enter your password in the recovery.08:23
nephroswith a decent pass phrase, inputting it on a screen should take much longer than any wait times, right?08:23
ThaodanSince luks support multiple keyslots.08:23
lolekhmm I see that TEE is a problem because of binary blobs from Qualcom, at least this is what I understand from olf post:
flypig#info rinigus's solution supports hwcrypt, and this may be a topic to come back to in a future meeting.08:25
Thaodanlolek:  olf has a point..08:25
flypigAlright, we should move on, given how many questions we have. Thanks for the nice question lolek. Useful discussion.08:26
ViGeI would also expect issues with TEE, as it quite likely doesn't like the fact that we have unlocked bootloader.08:26
ThaodanTHat doesn't matter so far.08:26
ThaodanIf it would the device wouldn't boot.08:26
ThaodanWe use keystore in the hal already.08:26
lolekwell I forgot to put this on the question list... I wanted to start conv about potential problems and obstacles that need to be fixed in order to get locked bootloader ;)08:27
lolekThaodan: about other security issues or TEE only?08:27
Thaodanlolek: if the bootloader supports user signatures you can relock it with your own key to accept only kernels e.g. from Jolla but Sony phones don't support that so far.08:28
lolekThaodan: then the next question is: what Jolla can do, and if community can help here. Maybe sending letters to "concrete" Sony?:D08:29
flypigOkay, I'm going to kindly request we delay this discussion for a future meeting. Would you please add it as a future question lolek?08:29
Thaodanlolek: TEE and outdated components. Using USB tokens is a matter of updating systemd. We already can use fido tokens.08:29
lolekflypig: which one?:)08:29
flypiglolek, bootloader locking08:30
flypigOkay, thank you :) Let's go to the next question.08:30
flypig#topic Different sounds for different sim/user/group/alarm (5 mins -- asked by lolek)08:30
*** sailbot changes topic to "Different sounds for different sim/user/group/alarm (5 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:30
flypig#info <lolek> Different sounds for different sim/user/group/alarm is a critical feature especially for those who are using dual sim functionality.08:30
flypig#info <lolek> So at least for the beginning it would be great to have:08:30
flypig#info 1) different ringtone for every sim card;08:30
flypig#info 2) different ringtone for contact specified as favourites;08:31
flypig#info 3) different ringtone for each alarm;08:31
flypig#info 4) different ringtone for every contact.08:31
flypig#info <lolek> Please state when we can expect this.08:31
ThaodanFor relocking the bootloader: I'm afraid there isn't much we can do, Sony has to implement more of avb.08:31
flypigHere is our prepared answer.08:31
Thaodanbut new topic now.08:31
flypig#info <Jolla> We agree this is a nice feature, and changes that we've introduced in the upcoming release have been designed to make an implementation easier, by routing ringtone requests via the user interface code. See for example the following PR.08:31
flypig#info <Jolla> However, more work is needed to integrate it with the Contacts app. We can't therefore give any guarantees about a future implementation.08:31
flypig#info <Jolla> For some context, the Personal Ringtones app from rinigus offers this as a third-party feature.08:31
flypig#info <Jolla> We discussed it during a community meeting in August 2021 and some useful links for anyone interested in contributing to development are provided in the minutes.08:32
flypigpvuorela worked on the PR, in case you'd like to add something pvuorela?08:32
ExTechOp(this kind of also ties in with automatic silent times at night, which currently are not really available without much hacking)08:32
flypigIs the Situations app still available?08:33
sebix[m]flypig: yes08:34
pvuorelathat was quite good description already. but could note that per contact alarms might be easiest UI-wise and serve most people.08:34
lolekpvuorela: ok, that's good to know, wasn't there even a patch for that?08:34
pvuorelahm, don't remember any directly.08:35
nephrosSituations does not work well since SaiJail, upstream development say they are working on refactoring but have not too much time to dedicate to SFOS development.08:35
flypigIt might be interesting top see if Personal Ringtones can be updated to use the new code.08:35
lolekyeah, don't see it :(08:35
lolekpvuorela: and how about having at least the first one - as a starting point?08:35
lolekI mean the "different ringtone for every sim"08:35
flypignephros, does that apply even if it's configured not to run sailjailed?08:36
pvuorelaon that i'm wondering how to do the ui so it's not too confusing with the generic ringtone selection.08:36
lolekpvuorela: so it's only the gui prblem then?08:36
nephrosflypig: yes, the backend seems to use some outdated APIs to do things as well.08:36
flypigI see; that's a shame, but thanks for clarifying nephros.08:36
pvuorelalolek: yea, mnore of that. on the per-contact the ui should be simple ringtone picker on contat editor.08:37
pvuorelaand it's easy to understand that if the contact has the ringtone it overrides the generic setting.08:37
nephrossure. Most of Situations is closed source, so fixing is hard. There is its helper app which is Open source though.08:37
lolekpvuorela: tbh it's easy... in the "Sounds and ringtones"  there's "Ringtone" with option to select a tone. So if user has two sims, there should be a sub category: Ringtone (sim1), Ringtone (sim2) ... simple and clean08:37
lolekwell maybe the same for Message ..08:38
lolekthe grouping can be based either on the type: Call/Message or Sims: Sim1 [ ringtone, message], Sim2 [ringtone, message]08:38
pvuorelalolek: what about if the user doesn't want to override sim2?08:38
loleknothing by default both will have the same setting08:39
nephrosIf anyone is touching the DualSIM UI, why not pull in this as well:
lolekyes, naming sims is also something that's needed and would work quite well with that cause then in the ringtones a simcard name could be used instead of sim1/sim208:40
lolekyeah just checked .. on Android it's groupped by sim name08:41
lolekerm, sorry the opposite, by the type of the sound08:41
lolekso it's ringtone: sim1/sim208:42
nephrosOther parts of the UI (i.e. mobile network) also jsut duplicate all the settings for each SIM. Cound be done for Tones as well.08:42
lolekpersonally I have no preference08:42
flypigOkay all, we only had 5 mins on this, so I propose to move to the next question.08:42
lolekflypig we need a summary for this one08:42
pvuorelahm, could check if that could be easy to accomplish.08:43
lolekpvuorela: so quick confirmation: ringtones for simcard and alarms is not a big problem and should be doable, right?08:43
loleksee that I'm not asking for dates ;)08:43
pvuorelayea, shouldn't be a huge thing.08:43
ExTechOpflypig As noted, Situations doesn't currently work very easily with SFOS, and anyway it's a bit of an overkill for "night silence" type functionality.08:43
ExTechOpIf the OS had something like this (eg. automatically switch over from one ambience to another at a given time) it would also be a natural extension to have only people with certain ringtones able to call at that time.08:43
flypig#info It was noted that ringtones for simcard and alarms would be a nice first step, and potentially achievable.08:43
flypigIs that a fair summary lolek? Anything to add?08:44
loleknope it's great, next step would be how to push this ;)08:44
flypigExTechOp, noted, that would also be nice :)08:44
flypigpvuorela, any suggestions for how the community can encourage or help?08:45
flypig(for the minutes)08:45
pvuoreladunno. profiled and voicecall are open source, and the contacts backend too, but then again these requires UI side changes with them.08:46
flypig#info For community help, pvuorela noted that profiled and voicecall are open source, and the contacts backend too, but this requires UI side changes, so it may not be so easy to propose changes from the community's side.08:47
flypigAlright, we have to move on I'm afraid... my timings are already out the window!08:47
flypig#topic Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek)08:48
*** sailbot changes topic to "Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:48
flypig    #info <lolek> This is actually seen in the gallery app but the issue is maybe related to tracker.08:48
flypig#topic Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek)08:48
*** sailbot changes topic to "Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"08:48
flypig#info <lolek> This is actually seen in the gallery app but the issue is maybe related to tracker.08:48
flypig#info <lolek> The second link mentions about Folder View in gallery as also limiting which directory is scanned for images.08:48
flypig#info <lolek> The gallery app should get a configuration option to allow us to exclude unwanted directories from showing up in it.08:48
flypig#info <lolek> When we can expect this to be fixed/implemented?08:48
flypigThanks again for the question lolek. Here's our prepared answer.08:49
flypig#info <Jolla> After looking into this, it's already the case that images in the Music folders don't appear in the Gallery.08:49
flypig#info <Jolla> On further discussion, it transpired that the problem images were stored on an SD card.08:49
flypig#info <Jolla> We don't have any plans to change the way tracker handles SD cards, or to introduce configuration options in the user interface for this.08:49
flypig#info <Jolla> However, tracker itself does have configuration options, and the Gallery App QML can also be tweaked for more specific requirements (see /usr/share/jolla-gallery/gallery.qml), at your own risk!08:49
flypigUnfortunately I don't think it's possible to achieve masking Images alone from specific folders using Tracker configurations alone.08:50
flypigBut maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.08:50
lolekit is not from what I know and I really don't like the answer08:50
nephrosInteresting. Am I to read here that Jolla encourages users to hack around in their shipped apps?08:50
flypiglolek, I understand that it's not the answer you wanted, but we wanted to be open with you about it, as your request was quite specific.08:51
lolekyes I understand... you don't always get an answer you want ;)08:51
flypignephros, absolutely not :)08:51
flypigBut the device belongs to the user.08:51
pvuorelaby tracker sparql query it's possible to limit the results, but it's a different thing should we do that.08:51
ViGenephros: The users hack around whether we encourage them or not. There was the "at your own risk" part :)08:51
NicoSo I can control tracker using dconf?08:51
lolekwell we discussed this on the forum and I think another approach would be better08:51
flypigpvuorela, yes, but that's essentially at the UI end, right? That's what we already do with the Gallery.08:52
pvuorelaflypig: yes, app deciding what it wants.08:52
ThaodanI think other apps that use traker could be a start to look at to implement folder support.08:52
nephrosWell, I take form this that Patchmanager shall update documentaiton on how to do a proper patch, so people don't just `devel-su nano foo`.08:53
NicoAh, if the app tells tracker what it wants, that is indeed annoying :D08:53
ThaodanBut for excluding folders we can already do that.08:53
flypigIn theory, excluding specific folders wouldn't be hard. But getting the UI right for that... I think that's more of an issue.08:53
ThaodanCommuity implemented a ui for that.08:53
lolekflypig: so yeah... first is what Thaodan mentioned - support for folders in the gallery that's a must08:53
flypigThis isn't just about excluding folders of course, it's about excluding folders for specific media types.08:53
ThaodanFrom my pov it did work fine but I think for "official" it could use some polishing.08:54
lolekflypig: second is what I proposed related to sd card structure. This is what I saw in Android, and Blackberry. The system assumes the same structure that's on the phone and that's it08:54
nephrosThere is but I don't think that still works with tracker3. Not sure.08:54
lolekI think that there's like 99% of the users that use sdcard that will have folders to keep music, photos, video08:55
flypignephros, but that's all or nothing tracker configuration right? Not based on media types.08:55
lolekthey won't be using sdcard like a big bag of everything08:55
lolekthe only thing is the folder naming08:55
nephrosflypig: yes, only path-exclusion and such.08:55
ThaodanFlypig: A quick fix would be to ignore */cover.png08:56
flypigBecause as others have pointed out, there's already the option to put a .notrack file in a folder to prevent tracking.08:56
lolekso the solution ... sfos will expect Music, Pictures, Video on sdcard the same way as on the system.. if user have different, sorry then gallery can easilly support albums08:56
lolekas files from filesystem and sd can be easily "merged" into one collection08:56
flypigSorry, it's ".nomedia"08:56
flypiglolek, do you have some docs for that behaviour on Android? That would be useful info.08:56
lolekThaodan: nah... it's not only cover, it can be front_cover, back_cover... etc08:56
lolekflypig I could try to find this out08:57
Thaodansure but you can add those too to the list.08:57
flypigThat would be good: it's the sort of area where it makes sense to match what other systems are doing, in case SD cards are moved between systems.08:57
lolekwell that would be a problem imho08:57
lolekfor use there's pictures but I think I also saw dcim like for camera08:58
Thaodanthe topic came up on the tracker mailing list:
nephrosflypig: but while putting .nomedia in a Music folder will remove images from Gallery I guess it also removes music from Media right?08:59
ThaodanBut the best fix right now is to exclude $XDG_MUSIC_DIR/*.{png,jpg} this would be covered by the simple path expansion.08:59
flypignephros, yes, exactly. I only meant that it's an alternative to the patch.08:59
loleknephros: yes08:59
Thaodansince the path expansion can also match on file names but not their types08:59
lolekThaodan: as I presonally pointed aout the problem I'll allow myself to say that the quick solution in this case is bad idea09:00
flypigSo, we've hit time again. Anything for the minutes on this? It would be good to move to the next.09:00
Cryx#info Cryx - community; late but here before my topics09:00
flypigHi Cryx, good to have you here :)09:00
ThaodanIt's not bad since in that directory any png or jpg file doesn't matter, you don't need to check the mime type.09:01
Thaodanthe extension is good enough.09:01
lolekflypig it seems this is what you asked for:
flypig#info There was a lot of discussion about different options, but none that lolek was satisfied with as a solution for the issue experienced.09:03
flypig#info lolek provided a useful link to the Android approach.09:03
flypigAlright, let's move on to the next.09:04
flypig#topic Security of stored credentials (10 mins -- asked by lolek)09:04
*** sailbot changes topic to "Security of stored credentials (10 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"09:04
ThaodanI think excluding file extensions with a path match in front is the 95% of cases soluton right now.09:04
flypig#info <lolek> For the built in mail client credentials are stored in plain text and easily accessible having just elevated privileges.09:04
lolekThaodan: can I hack this on my own?09:04
flypigSorry, can we park it for General discussion (it's good discussion, but this will get confusing).09:05
flypig#info <lolek> This is something that shouldn't be possible in current world. Malicious app can escalate privileges and could easily get mail credentials.09:05
lolekyes sure09:05
flypig#info <lolek> I proposed a solution in the following thread. I'd like to know what are the plans to fix the problem of having password so easily accessible.09:05
flypigThanks lolek. And thanks again for this question. Here's our prepared answer.09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> There are security benefits to encrypting the credentials separately from the device encryption, but these benefits are not as big as they may appear.09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> Any implementation would require the unencrypted credentials to be stored in memory, with similar risks from elevated privileges as the current implementation.09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> In both cases developer credentials, or a successful privilege escalation attack, are needed to access the unencrypted credentials.09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> Our focus is therefore on avoiding the need to store any passwords on your device by moving accounts to OAuth2 so there is no need to store passwords at all.09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> See for example this StackOverflow comment for a similar perspective:09:06
flypig#info <Jolla> For app developers we recommend storing credentials using Sailfish Secrets, since apps don't have privileged access.09:07
lolekyeah but what with mail servers that doesn't support oauth2?09:07
lolekand does it mean that from your point of view, kernel keyring is not secure? I'm asking cause I'm not security expert09:07
flypigUnfortunately there is a fundamental insecurity in using such email servers.09:08
flypigIf the keyring is using a hardware security module, then that would be more secure.09:09
flypigOr if the password is decrypted on every use by asking a user for a passphrase, say.09:09
lolekwell I can think of a solution as I wrote. PW are decrypted only once and stored in kernel restricted area09:10
lolekso no other process can access it09:10
ThaodanI think the issue is that each prodider needs at least some work to have their oauth working.09:10
lolekThaodan: yes but you can't expect everybody will adapt to SFOS09:11
flypiglolek, it's already the case that non-system processes can't access the email passwords.09:11
NicoYeah, I think it is unlikely that every provider will provide oauth09:11
Thaodanlolek: It's not about Sailfish OS but about Sailfish OS to adapt to each providers oauth.09:11
abrNot just for sfos. OAuth is getting adopted all over the place these days. Even MS require it now for their mail.09:12
lolekyes but the providers must support oath2 and not everybody does09:12
lolekabr: please don't got with AM$09:12
loleknot here09:12
ThaodanIt's just one example, Oauth is widely accepted.09:12
abrit's an indicator that it's getting widely adopted. The SFOS mail plugin for Office had to migrate to use it.09:13
NicoWell, from the 3 email providers I use, only one of them supports oauth afaik09:13
flypigOAuth2 has many security benefits, that also benefit the providers; I'd expect it increasingly to be adopted.09:13
ThaodanPersonally I use pgp to encrypt my passwords with my hardware token. Adapting pass into Saifish Secrets should be possible.09:13
NicoOtoh, for me the password being protected from user processes is good enough09:13
abrit's the same on your desktop really isn't it09:14
lolekabr: as I said, please don't use M$ as a guide... cause then we would be locked and would be allowed to do nothing. That company is something you don't want to follow.09:14
ThaodanYeah and two factor/topt  also works without oauth.09:14
abrlolek: you're misunderstanding - no-one's using MS as a guide. It was an example of how widespread OAuth is now09:14
Nicoabr: On my desktop it is stored in kwallet, so encrypted by my login password. Otoh kwallet does no process hash pinning, so it can be read by any process :D09:15
ThaodanMicrosofts oauth is actually rather good for foss apps since it doesn't require you to store api secrets.09:15
NicoI do have an alternative secrets store that pins by executable hash the permissions though09:15
lolekabr: I'm sorry but you're doing this right now09:15
Nicowouldn't protect againt system services though :309:16
abrOAuth isn't an MS standard. It's not the first account type in SFOS to use it.09:16
flypigEven OAuth2 doesn't prevent the tokens from being stolen and reused, but they are much less powerful than a password.09:16
flypigIt would be good to summarise the topic. Any suggestions?09:17
ThaodanThe implementation aren't standardtized fully at least but that's besides the topic.09:17
abryeah, the only advantage is that they're short lived. If it's on the filesystem, then it can be lifted.09:17
abrThaodan: yeah extending it to support the Office account required some... loosening... iiuc09:18
ThaodanFlypig: Encrypting passswords is a valid concern but it is not feaseable right now.09:19
lolekflypig we need to have a solution to have short lived password imho or again.. TEE?09:19
flypigThaodan, you mean hardware encryption?09:19
abryeah it would be nice to use the TEE. I think there's some work going on to look into that.09:19
Thaodanflypig: Any encryption helps even pgp with tokens stored on the same machine.09:19
flypiglolek, can we say: "protection is still needed for accounts that don't support OAuth2, TEE may therefore be something to consider here"/09:19
lolekI think so09:20
flypigThaodan, I don't really understand how that helps.09:20
ThaodanBut using pgp opens up hardware Encryption with external hardware quite easy.09:20
flypigSure, that helps, that I get :)09:20
flypig#info Protection is still needed for accounts that don't support OAuth2, TEE may therefore be something to consider for that.09:20
piggz_Thaodan: all my hardware secruity keys are usb-a :(09:20
abrslava's work on using an external key over NFC for his foil apps is very cool09:21
flypigabr, that sounds really nice; I've not seen that.09:21
ThaodanBest option is to add a new pass backend to Sailfish Secrets to store paswords.09:21
Thaodanpiggz: There is a yubikey usb c09:21
piggz_Thaodan: does that do pgp/ssh keys like a nitro-key pro?09:22
Thaodanabrs: Sadly there is no ccid support for nfc so for in our nfc implementation if so we could be able to use the smartcard of the yubikey through nfc.09:22
Thaodanpiggz_: yes09:22
abrThaodan: I'm not sure which device slava was using for it, but it worked :)09:23
Thaodanabr: slave just implemented topt not smardcard support.09:23
flypigAlright, we really need to move on. If there's more to say, we should continue in General discussion.09:24
flypig#topic New demo apps (5 mins -- asked by jojo)09:24
*** sailbot changes topic to "New demo apps (5 mins -- asked by jojo) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"09:24
flypig#info <jojo> Currently the only demo app we have from Jolla is the component gallery app.09:24
flypig#info <jojo> It would be nice to have additional demo apps showing how to use other components of the device such as the camera, Bluetooth sharing, uploading documents, etc.09:24
flypig#info <jojo> The docs on these topics are also very thin. Could Jolla provide such docs?09:24
flypig#info <jojo> To avoid having to dig into the git repos of other apps to try guessing how it works.09:25
flypigThanks for your nice question jojo_. Here is our prepared answer.09:25
flypig#info <Jolla> We do provide a few other examples as part of the SDK: Camera Gallery, Lipstick Notifications Gallery, Media Gallery as well as the Component Gallery.09:25
flypig#info <Jolla> Select "Welcome" then "Examples" in the Sailfish IDE to try them (or check the examples folder in the SDK installation).09:25
flypig#info <Jolla> We also provide sample apps on GitHub to demonstrate C, C++ and QML usage of libsailfishapp.09:25
flypig#info <Jolla> We've been working hard updating the docs recently, as you can see from Damien's Repository Roundups.09:26
flypig#info <Jolla> But we always like suggestions for improving them. We're also always happy to receive PRs to our docs or new example apps for the SDK.09:26
flypig#info <Jolla> Ideally these should be provided in a public git repo with a BSD licence.09:26
flypigIt's hard not to agree that the more examples people have access to the better. Would you like to add anything jojo_?09:26
loleka little nitpick... so only BSD licence MIT no?:)09:26
jojo_I was not aware of the camera ones, do they show how to access the camera api from an other app ?09:27
jojo_(I'll add those links and descriptions to the wiki to)09:27
flypiglolek, I'd expect MIT would be fine too. I guess the point is that copyleft licences may not be ideal for example code.09:27
flypigjojo_, thanks for offering to add the links, that would be great.09:28
flypigIs anyone able to comment on the camera example app?09:28
lolekflypig yeah I know.. that's why the ":)" at the end ;)09:28
flypigUnderstood lolek :) I may have a problem with taking everything too literally... ;)09:30
jojo_ideas of demos I had because they are issues I'm facing rn, are: importing documents, using the camera, access to keyboard word suggestion (the calendar app does that when suggesting new event names).09:30
lolekflypig no worries, it's hard to not do this when you never meet someone ;)09:30
flypigjojo_, nice ideas, especially keyboard word suggestions. Could you clarify what you mean by importing documents for me?09:31
flypigjojo_, maybe if you check the camera example, you can feed back whether it satisfies your needs or not.09:32
jojo_in the next release of the deepfish app i wanted to be able to pick a document from the $HOME/Documents folder, send it through the Deepl API, get the translation, and download it to the same (or different) folder. I managed doing that by reading someone else's code, but I'd have appreciated a "official" demo09:33
jojo_will do for the camera example09:33
flypigI'm just looking at the camera example code. It includes a VideoOutput area tied to the camera... is that what you're after?09:34
jojo_yes !09:34
jojo_great than that's one solved09:34
flypigOkay, great! Worth looking at then, and your feedback would certainly be appreciated.09:34
flypigSo importing documents would relate to the Document Picker?09:35
jojo_if you know how to get the input from the keyboard that would be cool too haha09:35
flypig#info jojo suggested additional examples related to the following would be useful: selecting documents using the Pickers and controlling keyboard autocomplete suggestions.09:36
jojo_My idea would be (please tell me if this is out of scope for the meeting), if the user allowed it in the settings (i dont know where), upon selection of a word, it gets translated automatically in the keyboard word suggestion line09:36
flypigjojo_, I don't know of demo code for autocomplete I'm afraid. Sorry.09:37
flypigjojo_, that sounds really neat :)09:37
jojo_yeah no problem, if anyone else has an idea or his/someone else's code doing it, feel free to send it to me09:37
flypigI'm afraid we have hit time though. Would you like anything further added to the minutes before we move on?09:38
jojo_nope, that was out of scope, pm me the url/idea on the forum if anyone has one09:39
flypig#info Please contact jojo on the forum with suggestions for autocomplete usage code.09:39
flypigThanks again jojo_ for your question.09:39
flypig#topic Handling of X10 III hardware button (Assistant Button) (15 mins -- asked by nephros)09:40
*** sailbot changes topic to "Handling of X10 III hardware button (Assistant Button) (15 mins -- asked by nephros) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"09:40
flypig#info <nephros> Question 1: Making the key accessible to the OS components:09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 1) re-use the existing functionality of MCE and lipstic-jolla-home;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 2) Replicate handling HOME key in MCE with separate signal to lipstick;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 3) Similar to 1 and 2 but handle it in the evdev codepath of MCE;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 4) make the code known to Qt instead of MCE;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 5) other?09:40
flypig#info <nephros> Question 2: Handling key press events: Once the button press can be signalled to the OS, it should do something. Preferably this should be user-configurable:09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 1) hardcode UI actions in Lipstick;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 2) something similar to the power key using MCE and DBus calls;09:40
flypig#info <nephros> 3) DConf key containing .desktop file to launch;09:41
flypig#info <nephros> 4) set of DConf keys to trigger a DBus call;09:41
flypig#info <nephros> 5) hardcode a Jolla-conceived very sexy killer feature.09:41
flypignephros, your question was quite long, I hope I preserved the thrust of it.09:41
nephrosYes, thanks.09:41
flypigHere is our prepared answer (sort of)09:41
flypig#info <Jolla> Thanks for working on this, it would certainly be nice functionality.09:41
flypig#info <Jolla> As this is a detailed question, rather than give a prepared answer, we've invited some of the relevant Sailors to join the discussion.09:41
flypignephros, I understand there was also some further discussion with pvuorela on your PR.09:42
nephrosA little yes.09:42
nephrosThe purpose of this was to find the general direction this should be tackled. Like MCE/no MCE, Lipstick/Qt.09:43
nephrosDetails I think  can be done in the PR.09:43
flypignephros, from what I understood, the message I heard was that MCE is probably not the right way to go. Better to handle it at the Qt layer.09:44
flypigAnd personally, I thought 3 or 4 for question 2 seemed most sensible. I'm not whether DConf is the right place.09:45
nephrosOkay. THe second question is what should the button do - redoing the HOME button ins really lame. Making it a Camera button is easy, but also kinda boring.09:45
flypigConfigurable would be really nice.09:46
nephrosflypig: I have a PoC lipstick patch doing either ;)09:46
jojo_<flypig> Configurable would be really nice. +109:46
jojo_"<flypig> Configurable would be really nice." +109:46
flypignephros, could we have the link here for the minutes please?09:46
pvuorelai think what most people would expect or need is the camera key. configuration comes at cost.09:47
pvuorelaand then if it's configurable, also the devices with camera key event should be configurable.09:48
nephrospvuorela: it's about 15 LoC or so.09:48
jojo_maybe Jolla could do the camera key one, and users could then create an app for making it configurable instead ?09:49
nephrosin Lipstick/composer I mean.09:49
flypigIt might be the sort of thing where having it configurable, but not user configurable (i.e. not exposed in the UI) would be enough for many.09:49
flypigjojo_, sorry, I guess I'm repeating what you said.09:49
ExTechOpGenerally speaking, I feel there should be other similar customizable "user input methods" (like we already have for flipping the phone over for making it stop ringing)09:49
nephros^^ my PoC, using MCE from
ExTechOpYeah, it'd probably be nice if didn't immediately wipe the phone for every button press :-D09:51
nephrosExTechOp: I do agree there.09:52
nephrosExTechOp: but maybe if we detect a 10 second press, oe even a knock-knock pattern?09:52
flypignephros, I'm not sure whether you got the answers you needed. Can we summarise?09:54
nephrosFine with me.09:54
flypigI suppose what you really need is more discussion on the PR?09:54
nephrosion case there is interest in any of it, yes.09:55
flypigOr, are you in a position to create a new PR already?09:55
nephrosflypig: not at this moment, no.09:55
flypigOkay, so let's log that you're encouraging more discussion on your PR.09:56
pherjung[m]#info pherjung, community09:56
flypigHi pherjung[m]!09:56
flypig#info nephros still needs more input to make progress with this. More discussion and direction on the PR would be useful.09:56
flypigIs that okay? We hit time, so it would be good to move on.09:57
nephrosSore, no problem.09:57
flypigThanks :)09:57
flypig#topic Current policy for support of new devices (10 mins -- asked by lolek)09:57
*** sailbot changes topic to "Current policy for support of new devices (10 mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"09:57
flypig#info <lolek> Maybe it's time again to rethink the support of new device and skip every second one?09:57
flypig#info <lolek> Or get back to some conversation with the Indian government? Or maybe even add option to get subscription-based support?09:57
flypig#info <lolek> Either way is fine to get more human power to move on and give us really viable alternative to iOS and Android.09:57
flypigThanks for your encouragement lolek. Here's our prepared answer.09:58
flypig#info <Jolla> Thanks for your suggestions. As it happens, we're currently reviewing both our device support and pricing strategy, so what you've provided is useful input.09:58
flypig#info <Jolla> We're not planning any changes in the short term, but we've been following the discussions on the forum carefully and are interested in all views.09:58
flypig#info <Jolla> Please keep an eye on the forums, as we plan to invite more feedback there.09:58
flypigThat's the answer. Feel free to comment :)09:58
lolekwell I think there's nothing to comment. It's good to hear this :) btw is there any option of freely supporting Jolla?09:59
lolekor it's only by buying license?09:59
flypigFreely support? You mean like donating money?09:59
pherjung[m]Personnaly, I prefer a postmarketOS approach than having a new device each year09:59
jojo_what's their approach ?10:00
pherjung[m]Support each device 10 years10:00
flypigConcerning donating money, I'm not aware of such an option. The foundation was looking at something like that though maybe?10:00
pherjung[m]And bring Linux Mainline10:00
nephrosjojo_: having a shitload of ancient devices barely booting.10:00
jojo_yes indeed, but, the fundation is not linked to Jolla anyhow10:01
lolekpherjung[m]: well I don't think it's good. It's too long, and why support device that's useless because of missing VoLTE as it's becoming mandatory in some countries?10:01
loleknephros: :D10:01
jojo_so if lolek's goal is to donate directly to the company, unfortunately the fundation wouldn't be the correct approach10:01
flypigjojo_, understood it's not Jolla linked, but it might be good to encourage more links, even if just informal.10:02
lolekwell one more thing. When I'm buying a license for SFOS I'll get exchange support, does it meen there's some license fee paid for AM$?10:02
jojo_i just wanted to be clear in case that was lolek's goal10:02
flypiglolek, oh, that's an interesting question. I don't immediately know the answer I'm afraid.10:02
lolekflypig yeah, please see if you can find out this information,10:04
flypiglolek, am doing...10:04
flypigAlright, I've not immediately got an answer, but will let you know if I do before the end of the meeting.10:06
lolekno worries, you can also let me know on the forum, that's fine10:06
flypigOkay. Should we move on to the next then? Would anyone like anything added to the minutes for this topic?10:07
pherjung[m]Let's move to the next topic :)10:07
loleklet's move10:07
flypigOkay moving on...10:07
flypig#topic Behaviour of location services (5 mins -- asked by Cryx)10:07
*** sailbot changes topic to "Behaviour of location services (5 mins -- asked by Cryx) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:07
flypig#info <Cryx> Location service starts to get a GPS fix when an app actively requests it.10:07
flypig#info <Cryx> This way geotagging of photos is not possible as the time for a fix is too long.10:08
flypig#info <Cryx> It's unclear if this is a bug or battery-saving feature.10:08
flypig#info <Cryx> If the latter then there should be a toggle implemented in location settings to choose between the current behaviour and always-on.10:08
flypigThanks for the question Cryx. Here's our prepared answer.10:08
flypig#info <Jolla> You raise a good point: there is certainly a trade-off between a fast GNSS fix and battery usage.10:08
flypig#info <Jolla> Some work was already done on this to support Advanced Mobile Location (AML) released in
flypig#info <Jolla> We're not actively considering continuous GNSS. However, if you'd like to look into it further, we recommend the following steps.10:08
flypig#info <Jolla> 1. In /etc/location/location.conf and /var/lib/location/location.conf edit "enabled" to be "true" to move positioning to a higher level of standby.10:09
flypig#info <Jolla> 2. Create a service to periodically poll position using geoclue. See the Positioning docs for info about geoclue. Ideally, have the service reduce polling when the screen is blanked.10:09
flypig#info <Jolla> 4. If it works well, let us know and we'll look at it seriously.10:09
flypigCryx, good that you could join, would you like to add anything?10:09
CryxNot at the moment. I'm more the user guy, but I'll lok into the provided docs.10:10
CryxI know there are other user with that question, willtry to team up with them.10:10
flypigYes, it's rather a technical answer I'm afraid, but primarily because there isn't an official way of achieving what you want right now.10:10
dcalisteDo you have a point 3. missing, flypig ?10:11
sledgesif above suggestion is too techy, there's a battery-hungry workaround: run CSD GPS test continuously (launch from Settings | About product | tap Build number 5 times | All tests | GPS Satellite Lock)10:11
flypigdcaliste, you make a very good point. I merged points 2 and 3 into point 2. So it's not missing, just badly numbered. Sorry!10:11
dcalisteSure, thanks.10:12
flypig#info Note: 3. Isn't missing; 4. was incorrectly numbered.10:12
CryxI don't think it's to techy, will give it a try.10:12
flypigsledges, nice suggestion.10:12
flypig#info <sledges>  if above suggestion is too techy, there's a battery-hungry workaround: run CSD GPS test continuously (launch from Settings | About product | tap Build number 5 times | All tests | GPS Satellite Lock)10:13
nephrosWhat could be a reason I sometimes see geoclue logging to journal that it starts GPS while the UI switch is off?10:13
pvuorelacould help here having also MLS location data downloaded if not already10:14
nephrosTo be precise, the logs appear precisely every two hours.10:14
Thaodansledges:  or have a heartbeat gps that passively scans in an interval.10:14
Thaodangps for such uses cases doesn't need to be precise10:14
ViGesorry for off-topic comment: There's an interesting new post on the forum ;)10:14
flypignephros, unsure about that I'm afraid.10:14
flypigYou are teasing us ViGe :) Perhaps you could share a link?10:15
nephrosAh the chain has been unchained!10:15
abrdoes that change one of the earlier answers?10:16
flypigI would like to re-write the answer to Question 1 now ;)10:16
lolekViGe: :)10:16
ExTechOpnephros This happened while this meeting was ongoing, checked it before it started10:16
flypigAlright, let's move to the next question, since it's on a similar topic.10:18
flypig#topic "Find my Phone"-Feature (5 mins -- asked by Cryx)10:18
*** sailbot changes topic to ""Find my Phone"-Feature (5 mins -- asked by Cryx) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:18
flypig#info <Cryx> Would it be possible to implement a feature to locate the phone?10:18
flypig#info <Cryx> I mainly think about support for the NextCloud PhoneTrack feature, especially as NextCloud is already implemented into the system.10:18
flypig#info <Cryx> A second option would be writing the last location data in regular cycles to a defined cloud service.10:18
flypig#info <Cryx>
flypigHere's our prepared answer.10:18
flypig#info <Jolla> It would certainly be possible, and it would be a great feature. We'd actually recommend using the Sailfish MDM framework for this, specifically LocationSettings and LocationInfo:10:18
flypigIt's rather a short answer Cryx, but hopefully gives some ideas.10:19
flypigCryx, did you want to add anything further?10:19
CryxMaybe, I need further reading.10:20
CryxAt the moment I guess we made a start wuth that.10:20
CryxNevertheless this is one of the points on my list of missing features in SFOS....10:21
flypigThis would be a really nice feature, but I also think it's potentially good for a third-party implementation.10:21
flypigI also can understand there are benefits of having it tightly integrated though, too, given it's a security feature.10:21
CryxThird party implementation für a pull request or as an app?10:22
lolekflypig it could be part of paid support imho10:22
flypiglolek, an interesting idea for sure.10:22
flypigCryx, I meant as a third party app in fact.10:22
nephroshmmm, a Nextcloud plugin for Sailfish MDM? :)10:23
flypignephros, yes, something like that.10:23
CryxBut app have still to activly run.10:23
lolekflypig yeah, to clarify... two options: 1 user can set up their own service to handle this, then it's free... jolla offers this as subscription say hmm 5$ per year? don't know10:23
piggz_flypig: fun fact relating to your last community news, which the above reminded me of ... installing quartermaster installs sailfish-mdm ... i was quite worried when i got those warnings on screen!10:23
flypigCryx, I'm not sure it would be possible to have it harbour-compatible, so it could run as a service (no UI).10:23
nephrosWE already have an app using NC phonetrack, and it even is in Harbour: LiveTrack.10:24
CryxA system task like backup function would be more useful for that case.10:24
flypigpiggz_, really? I wonder why that is.10:24
piggz_flypig: i wonder too! :)10:24
nephrosAnd PhoneTrack is basically just a GET request, so it shouldn't be too hard to make a background service.10:24
flypigDo you see the MDM banner anywhere in Settings?10:24
CryxAnd as said in my initial post: For me I primary think about nextcloud, but there would al,so be other optins...10:25
flypigNextcloud makes sense in terms of the existing integration. I think it's a nice suggestion.10:25
piggz_i got the mdm banner when i installed quartermaster, got worried, carried on ... and the above just reminded me to check, and "zypper rm sailfish-mdm" wants to remove harbour-quartermaster10:25
flypiglolek, thanks for the idea.10:26
piggz_i dont see any mdm stuff in settings though10:26
flypigpiggz_, if it's working with something specific, there may be some other banner elsewhere... sounds like not though.10:26
Ketowe don't want to deal with your location data, so Jolla providing it as a service is not really an option :)10:26
lolekKeto: ahh the UE regulations?10:27
piggz_Keto: you have all our data from connectivity check anyway ;)10:27
CryxThat was also not what I asked. I'm happy that Jolla doesn't run any service...10:27
piggz_has anyone ran a wireshark on ? :D10:28
lolekCryx: well it's nothing mandatory but optionally for those who don't want/can't set up their own service10:28
lolekpiggz_: what you found out?10:28
CryxSo the main idea was an option to use existing services by users choice.10:28
nephrospiggz_: that's why.10:28
lolekCryx: yep... and suggestion that jolla may benefit from it is valid as this would be a bigger motivation to do that ;)10:28
piggz_lolek: i was joking :)10:29
CryxBTW there where some additional points added by others to the topic. But may be too much for today.10:29
piggz_nephros: interesting10:30
flypigWe are already heavily over time on this topic and the meeting I'm afraid Cryx.10:30
CryxNo problem.10:30
flypigCryx, please raise it again in another meeting though. This one happened to be particularly packed.10:30
CryxI'll do.10:30
flypigWe must move on, but thanks for the question and the nice discussion.10:30
flypig#topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by jolla)10:30
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:30
flypig#info <jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?10:30
lolekI've got something related to todays release ;)10:31
lolekbut it's not PR10:31
flypiglolek, can you hold it in until General discussion10:31
* piggz_ is also holding until general10:31
lolekthere's nothing about echo cancellation on 10 III, is it finally fixed or we still have no fully usefull phone?10:31
lolekaaa ok10:31
flypigWe didn't have any PRs suggested in advance, but if someone would like to raise one, now is the time.10:31
flypigLet's give this 2 mins for someone to reply, then we'll move on.10:32
pherjung[m]I have one10:32
flypigYes! Please tell us.10:32
NicoOh, that was a while ago :310:34
flypigOkay, so this is dcaliste's PR awaiting input from Jolla.10:34
dcalisteYeh, I let these slip a bit. I was occupied with calendar stuff ; )10:35
flypigUnfortunately Raine, who has commented on the first PR, is attending the Yrityspaivat even this morning.10:35
ExTechOpFirst impression on Struve: somehow, many applications fell out of their folders and ended up on the main screen?10:38
flypigI've nudged Raine to take another look at the first PR.10:38
dcalisteWe may plan them for next community meeting PR discussion.10:39
dcalisteI'll try to be present.10:39
flypigOkay, thanks dcaliste that would be great. And thanks for flagging them up pherjung[m].10:39
flypigLet's do the bug tracking, then we can move to General discussion.10:39
flypig#topic Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by pherjung)10:39
*** sailbot changes topic to "Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:39
flypig#info <pherjung> Untracked bug reports... (see the forum)10:39
flypig#info <Jolla> Thank you again for all of your work in checking and collating bug reports.10:39
flypig#info <Jolla> Here are the results:10:40
flypig#info <Jolla> - 8 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".10:40
flypig#info <Jolla> - 2 bug reports tagged as "fixed".10:40
flypigGiven all we had so many questions I didn't have time to go through the "to be closed" and "duplicate" sections I'm afraid, but all of the bugs went in.10:40
flypigThanks once again for all your and the team's work pherjung[m], nephros.10:40
flypigThere isn't usually too much to discuss here, can we move straight on?10:41
pherjung[m]Just a question10:41
pherjung[m]Sould I limit to only 10 bugs10:41
pherjung[m]Without taking care of his category?10:41
flypigThat's a good question.10:42
nephrosExTechOp: About Struve: that is true for all *android* apps. Not for *any* sfos apps.10:42
flypigpherjung[m], last time we agreed that I'd focus on the first 10, and then give a best-effort for the others.10:42
flypigIf you are really keen for the other categories to be tackled on a weekly basis, I think limiting it to ten, and not categorising, might help with that.10:43
flypigSorry, not weekly, I mean fortnightly.10:43
flypigBut if you prefer to focus mostly on the bugs, then stick to what you're doing.10:43
ExTechOpnephros Ah, that's true10:44
pherjung[m]No problem. I'll always priorize untracked bugs report. But if I don't have enough I'll fill the rest with "duplicate" and "to close" bugs report10:44
flypigpherjung[m], that sounds really good.10:44
flypigpherjung[m], I will also contact you today privately to discuss some other points.10:45
flypigRelated to the bug coordination.10:45
flypigLet's go to General discussion.10:45
flypig#topic General discussion (10 min)10:46
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (10 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:46
piggz_mine is more of a request....10:46
piggz_pleeeeeease fix   using as a workaround doesnt really fit with the saillfishos message (common site names), plus, all the emails i get point to invalid urls .... i dont suppose you would want to change all the server config to make it officially in the emails it sends?10:46
flypigKeto, is that something you can help piggz_ with?10:46
ViGewe have a task about that in our backlog...10:47
ExTechOpAnyone here who would like to make a mosh package, perhaps on Chum?
flypigExTechOp, I would like that too.10:47
piggz_it was sad to see this change
ViGeI'd also like mosh10:48
piggz_ViGe: ....for over a year?10:48
piggz_it must have been broken for about that long now :(10:49
lolekok so now the question I asked above... with the current release, will 10 III get the echo issue fixed or we still have no good officially supported phone for SFOS?10:50
ViGepiggz_: not quite, it was opened in August :-P my understanding is that it's not that simple to fix10:50
piggz_ViGe: i figure there is some complexity .... would be interested to hear those details seperatly ... but its def been broken longer than that :)10:51
sledgeslolek: not with current release, but there might be a way to flash (when) fixed Sony blobs at any point in time. At the moment, there is a dirty workaround by copying relevant files from Android 12 SW binaries, but the list first needs to be truncated and pass that information to Sony, for them to fix Android 11 blobs respectivelly. Also need to check if flashing stock Android 12 (only10:51
sledgesobtained by XperiFirm for now) is needed, too. This is on my next TODO list10:51
piggz_another note, for anyone at FOSDEM ... loolk for Sailfish being mentioned on the libcamera talk/slides :)10:51
nephrosRegarding the previous Meeting topic of Gallery images, it turns out doing custom (filtered) displays in gallery.qml is quite easy, as suggested in
ThaodanSimilar issue regarding blobs is also that the camera server crashes because of a missing blob.10:52
ThaodanBoth issues should be fixed by a new blob release.10:52
loleksledges: I know I ask for much but could you please rise a prio for this? For now it seems that 10 III could be the first "fully" working SFOS device.10:52
sledgesit's already maxed out:)10:52
flypigpiggz_, which devroom is that?10:53
loleksledges: then instead of making it p1, make it p0 :D10:53
piggz_flypig: i dont know, i just got a sneak peak at the slides10:53
lolekyayayaya :D10:53
KetoI guess I can say that we have new hardware for the community obs. But not clear when exactly we get things fixed there, hopefully does not take too long10:53
ExTechOp(I must go now, thanks for the meeting!)10:54
flypigThanks ExTechOp!10:54
flypigWe should wrap up.10:54
flypigThanks for the link piggz_, but that seems to be last year :(10:55
flypigIf anyone is attending FOSDEM, you must come and visit us on the Linux on Mobile stand please!10:55
piggz_yeah, just realised10:55
lolekflypig would love to :(10:55
flypigSorry that you can't make it lolek.10:55
flypigAlright, I'm afraid my timing for this meeting has been terrible. It's time to go and play with
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)10:56
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023)"10:56
flypigProposing Thursday 16th February at 08:00am UTC10:56
lolekwhy not march?10:56
lolekI mean there's some mandatory two meetings per month?10:56
flypigUsually they are every two weeks.10:56
lolekah ok10:57
flypigUnless there's some reason not to, but I don't know of anything that applies here.10:57
loleknah, didn't know the rule10:57
flypigOkay, so no objections?!10:57
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 16th February 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2023-02-16T0800Z10:57
flypigI'm sorry my timekeeping was so bad in general. The good news in this respect is that this is also my last meeting as chairperson.10:57
flypigBut I'm delighted that ViGe will be taking over at the next meeting. Thank you for all of your excellent questions and discussion over the last year!10:58
flypigAnd thanks all for the lovely discussion this meeting too!10:58
lolekflypig why it's your last meeting as chairperson?10:58
ViGeI'm already a bit scared about the next meeting10:58
flypiglolek, ViGe will be much better than me.10:58
lolekViGe: no worries I'll try to keep the question list low from my side :d10:58
ViGeNo I won't10:58
lolekflypig I've got nothing to comment about you personally10:59
piggz_flypig: this one
flypigHaha. You asked good questions lolek, but there were quite a few!10:59
NicoWhat, this was the last pig meeting? D:10:59
dcalisteThanks a lot flypig for these meeting animations all the year long.10:59
lolekflypig questions is one... what will be the outcome of that is second thing10:59
flypigNico, there will still be pigs/gz at the meeting, I'm sure!10:59
NicoOkay, fair, but...11:00
flypiglolek, indeed so.11:00
NicoAre you flying off or just not chairing?11:00
lolekfor example, I'm still waiting for the home unlock api11:00
flypigNico, let's have that discussion at the next meeting!11:00
flypigTime to wrap up now though. Thank you all again!11:01
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Feb  2 11:01:10 2023 UTC.11:01
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 2nd February 2023 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"11:01
Crabsterthx to flypig and #?11:01
Nicowell, if you will be at the next meeting, I am not quite as scared :D11:02
sledgesflypig, what a way to end your amazing saga with a bang (a 3 hour meeting)! Cya soon!11:03
flypigHaha. So sorry sledges. A long slow bang ;)11:03
flypigNico, nothing to be scared about.11:04
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 16th February 2023 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"11:04
NicoJust didn't want to let go11:04
sledgesi'd take it with pride, so many questions! And now as always I'll allude to your intro message in mine:11:05
NicoThat's not for you to decide! Some people are afraid of spiders too!11:05
flypigpiggz_, just wanted to add, thanks for that camera talk link. I will try to catch it.11:05
piggz_flypig: great ... i wont be there, but i think im mentioned on a slide :)11:05
flypigpiggz_, hopefully the slides will also be made available afterwards so everyone can enjoy reading that at leisure too :)11:06
flypigNico, very true... I withdraw my earlier comment ;)11:07
piggz_sailfish gets a mention too ... possibly you are in a similar room being automotive?11:07
NicoDamn, misaligned keyboard...11:07
flypigpiggz_, unfortunately not. We have talks in the FOSS on Mobile devroom, and the Public Code and Digital Public Goods devroom. But not in the automotive one.11:09
piggz_ah ok11:09
dcalisteflypig, duration was not your fault, there were 9 topics !11:11
NicoWell, everyone wanted to get their topic in at time to have flypig manage it! :p11:11
flypigHaha. I think it had more to do with lolek's eagerness to get answers (very understandable!). But let's go with what you say Nico ;)11:13
flypigAnd thanks dcaliste, it was always going to be long, that's true :)11:14
lolekflypig lol11:25
lolekI was just asking questions... and it's a good manner to give answers, right?:)11:25
flypiglolek, you're absolutely right, and there was no fault implied in my comment! We love getting questions.11:44

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