Thursday, 2023-12-07

ExTechOpGood Morning, everyone!07:58
rainemakGood morning!07:58
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 202308:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Dec  7 08:00:00 2023 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
rainemakThat was a sharp start :-)08:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.08:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot_08:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:00
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today08:00
Zyuc2G#info Zyuc2G, community/dev08:01
Crabster#info Crabster - lurker08:01
karry#info Lukáš Karas - community developer08:01
Keto#info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla08:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for wotsits:)08:01
b100dian[m]#info Vlad G., community08:01
b100dian[m]Morning :)08:02
sledgessailbot_ has a tail_, thus won't be able to change channel topic..08:03
ExTechOpsledges Even though ChanServ gave it /op ?08:04
rainemaksledges, I'll update topic after the meeting08:04
sledgesi.e. for ongoing discussion topics08:04
Ketoit just didn't have ops from the start as Raine was faster than me :)08:04
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:05
rainemakKeto, :-)08:05
rainemakAlright, let's start with the first topic. Welcome everybody!08:05
nephros#info Peter G., community08:05
rainemak#topic Future of Jolla (8mins -- asked by Valorsoguerriero97)08:05
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Future of Jolla (8mins -- asked by Valorsoguerriero97) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:05
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> There are ongoing rumors, docs and newspaper citing that08:05
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> Jolla is under debt restoration, how it is going? The plan08:05
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> is accepted? What we can do to help? What are the consequences08:05
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> for SFOS and supported devices?08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> A solution was finally found on November 24, 2023 as the local District Court08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> decided on the restructuring program and obligated a complete sale of the business08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> to another company. The entire business and staff of Jolla Ltd. has now transferred08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> to a new company in whole.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> The new legal entity was named Jollyboys Ltd, but as it has now acquired the Jolla and08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Sailfish brands and trademarks, you may consider the legal entity name to be secondary08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> - it’s the new Jolla anyway.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> No consequences for Sailfish OS as entire business and staff were transferred to another08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> company. Similarly, Sailfish X program continued as part of business transfer.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Let’s keep on sailing together!08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:06
rainemakIndeed! Hurrah!08:07
b100dian[m]Good news of the year!08:08
dcalisteYeh, good news. Particularly for the Jolla employees, em, Jollyboys employees !08:08
tuplasuhveli[m]#info tuplasuhveli, community (late and currently at work)08:09
rainemakI'd emphasize that Jolla and Sailfish brands and trademarks belong to the new entity.08:10
rainemakthis is now new Jolla08:10
Zyuc2GIt might be more relevant for my question later, but who owns the proprietary code? Is it Jollyboys?08:11
rainemakthe entire business and staff of Jolla ltd has now transferred to Jollaboys08:12
sebix[m]Why was the new entity necessary? (Or will that be answered in a future forum post?)08:13
rainemakentire business includes practically everything08:15
rainemaksebix[m], I am not a lawyer08:17
rainemakI guess this is covered - let's sail on.08:17
rainemak#topic Drain on Xperia 10 III (3mins -- asked by Valorsoguerriero97)08:17
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Drain on Xperia 10 III (3mins -- asked by Valorsoguerriero97) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:17
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> There are some bug reports citing that the 10 III is having battery08:17
rainemak#info <Valorsoguerriero97> drain, what’s the point of solving those issues?08:17
rainemak#info <Jolla> These has been some investigation into the battery drain but no obvious reason08:18
rainemak#info <Jolla> has been found yet.08:18
rainemakPlease post your ideas / findings to the forum. We can further discuss findings in the community meetings and forum.08:19
rainemakNext we have a question about OBS tar_git.08:20
rainemak#topic OBS tar_git support of fileserver (5mins -- asked by vlagged / b100dian)08:20
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "OBS tar_git support of fileserver (5mins -- asked by vlagged / b100dian) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> There is at least a tar_git copy on github which supports08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> a command-line param called “fileserver” 1. This would allow08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> a build to start by downloading an internet resource of a known08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> SHA-1 if listed in a _sources file.08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian>08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> This is however not listed in the service spec now.08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian>08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> The use case is for example software built with npm or yarn which cannot08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> run on OBS (network access) or has a very high cache size (think 500MiB08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> cache for a 5MiB build output) - however can be easily be built in other08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> CI systems such as github/gitlab/codeberg’s.08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian>08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> It would be useful to use the output of a such build automatically in08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> an OBS build (which would do the non-nodejs part such as qml, c++ rpm08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> packages) by specifying the URL to download & the expected SHA-1 sum,08:20
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> just as fileserver param is doing.08:20
rainemak#info <Jolla> The fileserver parameter in tar_git is not listed in the service spec because it allows08:20
rainemak#info <Jolla> access to local files. So it would require some modifications before enabling.08:21
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:21
rainemak#info <Jolla> There are also other OBS source services which provide similar functionality and which08:21
rainemak#info <Jolla> we could consider enabling08:21
rainemak#info <Jolla> Those do not seem to have checksum verification for the downloaded file, but otherwise08:21
rainemak#info <Jolla> should be fit for the purpose.08:21
b100dian[m]That check can be manually added in the build spec though08:22
Ketorainemak: your line splitting could be better ;)08:22
rainemakKeto, I guess it could08:22
b100dian[m]I should write less in a question:)08:22
b100dian[m]So will download_* services be enabled any time soon?08:23
rainemakb100dian[m], if you don't mind, I'll drop next time vlagged from the nick -> it should cleanup lines a bit08:23
KetoI can probably install those after the meeting, iirc they come packaged in opensuse08:23
b100dian[m]Or are there any solution for nodejs builds, like access to npm repo?08:24
b100dian[m]Rainemak: sure08:24
rainemakI have understood that both are your nicks? Is my understanding right.08:24
b100dian[m]Keto: that would be great!08:25
Ketothere is also an node/npm service, but that seems a lot more complicated08:25
b100dian[m]Oh, _that_ I didnt know/study08:26
b100dian[m]Rainemak: yes, both mine08:26
rainemakwe have few extra minutes that we could allocate to this topic if needed.08:26
Ketoand I'm not sure how that npm service runs the stuff, and what kind of setup it need08:27
Ketoso I would go with the download_files service, which is simple and easy to use08:27
b100dian[m]Keto: it probably uses package.json But for starters, dowload_files should be good already08:28
rainemakTime to move on... we few questions still to cover. Please continue in the generic discussion at the end. Ok?08:29
b100dian[m]I think we're good here here on this topic08:29
rainemak#topic PWA / Web Push notifications (10mins -- asked by vlagged / b100dian)08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> Web push notifications are usually available when service workers are.08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> This allows a running browser/webview app to get messages from websocket08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> connections and pass them to the host OS as native notifications.08:29
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "PWA / Web Push notifications (10mins -- asked by vlagged / b100dian) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian>08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> Currently sailfish-browser doesn’t pass HTML5 Web Notifications08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> Test - (no popup for permission => denied). Is there any08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> specific place this could is tweaked to “say no” and where would a08:29
rainemak#info <vlagged / b100dian> browser/webview patch need to look at first to enable these?08:29
rainemakI could have cleaned that already... sorry08:29
rainemak#info <Jolla> Web push notifications need support at least to sailfish-components-webview and08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> embedlite-components and possibly browser or other components but it is not a huge08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> task but still takes quite an amount of work. PWAs i.e. progressive web apps are08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> apps that run using web engine but appear as regular apps and thus need a lot more08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> such as launcher integration, handling of installation/uninstallation and08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> many other changes and therefore is a lot bigger task.08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> In general, progressive web apps are something that we should look in the light08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> of new technology development. Mozilla’s developer network has a good article08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> regarding progressive web apps – worth reading if you’re not familiar with08:30
rainemak#info <Jolla> progressive web apps.08:30
b100dian[m]Most of the launcher integration and local database can be done by a sailfish-qml project embedding a webview today, but not the enablement of push notification08:31
rainemakb100dian[m], it really depends on how it should be implemented08:32
rainemakb100dian[m], browser and webview do not share the same rendering pipeline08:32
b100dian[m]I imagine that first step is to find where the permission can be enabled/asked for, which I wasnt able to myself08:33
b100dian[m]Then see what needs to be done from there08:33
rainemaknotification is one part of this08:33
rainemakstep-by-step approach works but this needs to planning and roadmapping08:33
b100dian[m]Probably an event sent to the webview for a notification and integrator app handles it?08:34
rainemakfor example, how does this align with engine update? a question that we should tackle.08:34
b100dian[m]Indeed, I should probably try to build the new engine instead of the current one to debug this, but I still wouldn't know where to start with enabling it.08:35
rainemakb100dian[m], I'm not completely sure what you're aiming for. There's some existing work for the web notification that we could look first.08:35
b100dian[m]Oh, I didn't know about existing work08:36
rainemakb100dian[m], but even that is more complex and should not be overlooked08:36
b100dian[m]Is this work in the open?08:37
rainemaklet's see if we could resurrect that work08:37
rainemakshould be in open...08:37
sledgesHow Firefox for Android works is receiving WebPush signal from GeckoView engine, and creating Android notification08:37
rainemak#action Jolla to check whether we could resurrect past web notification work08:37
rainemaksledges, that's the first step that should be implemented08:38
sledgesPerhaps similar needs implementing in the sailfish-browser (chrome) part08:38
rainemakthen getting service background works to work is another thing08:38
rainemakthen getting service background workers to work is another thing08:38
sledgesAren't service workers part of GeckoView? That seems to work out of the box in Android somehow:)08:39
b100dian[m]I'm interested in the webview + running notifications when an app and it's webview are on. A background service is indeed a more complex matter for sailfish-browers08:39
b100dian[m]I think not even desktop browsers notify when not running, am I wrong?08:39
sledgesb100dian[m]: correct, if you close desktop browser, all bets are off08:39
rainemaklet's find the old branch08:40
b100dian[m]service workers should be a JS worker that is already supported by our gecko08:40
rainemakthis triggered nice discussion but it's time to move on08:40
sledgesrainemak: ah now I remember, Firefox for Android sadly relies on Google's Firebase via their own push server08:40
rainemaksledges, correct08:40
sledgesthis is how they solve the problem of OOM killer shutting down Firefox browser for Android08:40
rainemakLet's move the final question.08:40
rainemak#topic New ownership and opensourcing/GPLv3 (10mins -- asked by Zyuc2G)08:41
rainemak#info <Zyuc2G> Given SailfishOS proprietary assets are under new ownership, is there any renewed08:41
rainemak#info <Zyuc2G> effort to release them under FOSS licensing (in particular Silica)?08:41
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "New ownership and opensourcing/GPLv3 (10mins -- asked by Zyuc2G) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:41
rainemak#info <Jolla> This question relates to the strategy work of the new Jolla. We will come back08:41
rainemak#info <Jolla> to you asking questions. For now, please give us time for the strategy work.08:41
ExTechOpWhat is the expected time scale here?08:42
rainemakExTechOp, too early to say but you'll certainly hear when there's something to share08:43
Zyuc2GSorry you said last question, will nephros's question be asked this week? About the repos that were opensourced and then removed.08:43
rainemakZyuc2G, that wasn't really a question. Let's cover it on the generic.08:43
rainemakThere was also one 5G question. Unfortunately that came a bit too late. Let's08:44
rainemakcover that on the next meeting. Thanks.08:44
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by Jolla)08:45
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:45
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?08:45
rainemakIf fine for all, I'd move forward and spare time for generic08:47
rainemakgoing once08:48
rainemakgoing twice08:48
rainemak#info <topic> Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by thigg)08:48
rainemak#info <thigg> Only got a few items prepared this time08:48
rainemak#info <Jolla> As a result of the work, we now have:08:48
rainemak#info <Jolla> 1 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked"08:48
rainemak#info <Jolla> 2 bug reports tagged as fixed.08:48
rainemak#info <Jolla> As always, big thanks to the bug coordination team!08:48
flypigGreat work, but as this is fewer than usual, does that mean that all the bugs are now classified?08:49
rainemaknot seeing thigg but seeing pherjung[m] <- thanks once again08:49
rainemakflypig, cannot be so that all are classified -> I'm having hard time to believe that08:50
flypigMy too, but it would be the dream :)08:50
rainemakLet's move on to the general discussion.08:50
flypig*Me too08:50
rainemak#topic General discussion (5 min)08:50
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "General discussion (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:50
Ketoregarding the browser question, was that about two different things, and ?08:51
rainemakWhole PWA is different that web notifications08:52
flypigFor this topic I was also wondering if this material still looks valid? The page is old, but the links seem to go to more recent and active material.08:52
rainemakI think this is better link to follow
b100dian[m]I believe is the "Notification - Web APIs" link that I asked about. Permission to send notifications, created by a servicee worker08:53
rainemakZyuc2G, you asked about the nephros' piggy-back question.08:53
Zyuc2Gyes, that's right08:54
nephrosI'm here, and also interested :)08:54
poetaster(sorry, very late)08:55
sledgesb100dian[m]: Web Push is when you close the tab that subscribed you to notifications. Web Notification API is when the tab is still open (a.k.a. In-App notifications)08:55
rainemak#info <Jolla> We'll get back to OSS components when time is right.08:55
rainemakI could repeat previous answer as well08:56
nephrosIt's fine, thanks.08:56
rainemak#info <Jolla> For now, please give us time for the strategy work.08:56
b100dian[m]That sounds like a yes, but later?08:56
rainemakStrategy work first.08:57
b100dian[m]sledges: Web Notifications API is a good first step, for an app packaging a webview. PWAs are an "entire roadmap" work indeed08:58
nephrosAbout the topic of PWAs, this work looks interesting:
rainemakb100dian[m], I'll take a personal note regarding those previous web notification branches08:58
nephrosIT requires newer Mozilla components, but still.08:58
b100dian[m]rainemak: thanks!08:58
rainemaklet's schedule quickly next meeting08:59
sledgesb100dian[m]: very true08:59
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (1 min)08:59
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (1 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 7th Dec 2023)"08:59
rainemakProposing Thursday 21st December at 08:00am UTC.08:59
rainemakIs this too close to Christmas break?08:59
rainemakthat's it then09:00
ExTechOpThanks, everyone!09:00
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 21st December 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2023-12-21T0800Z09:00
rainemakThank you everyone for the meeting!09:00
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Dec  7 09:01:02 2023 UTC.09:01
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 7th December 2023 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:01
rainemakLogs appear to the forum a bit later.09:01
flypigInteresting discussions, thanks all!09:01
Crabsterthx #?09:01
dcalisteThank you every one.09:02
b100dian[m]Yes, thanks for the answers!09:02
poetastersorry I missed it!09:04

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