Thursday, 2023-12-21

rainemakgood morning everybody!07:42
ExTechOpGood Morning from me too!07:42
nephroshello! :)07:46
rubdos[m]I had too much coffee yesterday, so I'm sleep-deprived now. Let's do this!07:47
rubdos[m]That was me, teaching at 8AM. They shouldn't let us teach at 8AM.07:54
direc85[m]Good morning! I'm just starting my jug of coffee!07:57
rainemakI also grabbed a cup of coffee08:00
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 202308:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Dec 21 08:00:11 2023 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.08:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:00
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla08:01
direc85[m]#info Matti Viljanen - community08:01
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen - sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today08:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:01
voidanix[m]#info voidanix - lurking virtuoso08:01
rainemakvoidanix[m], you're lurking too much as you raised two good topics.08:02
rainemakyou're not08:02
rubdos[m]#info Ruben De Smet - community08:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - community08:03
Keto#info Pami Ketolainen - Sailor @ Jolla08:03
Keto(in a train, so might be online or not)08:04
rainemakWhilst going through introduction, I'm pleased to see good amount of topics raised. Unfortunately two of them were late submissions. Let these two topics drive us to a great start of the next year.08:04
rainemakparticipation goes to community :-)08:05
rainemak#topic Status of VoLTE packages availability (10mins -- asked by voidanix)08:05
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Status of VoLTE packages availability (10mins -- asked by voidanix) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:05
rainemak#info <voidanix> another SFOS release is supposedly behind the corner and many08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> carriers have been shutting down their 3G/2G infrastructures08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> this year. What is blocking Jolla from releasing the (currently08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> proprietary) VoLTE packages to public repositories, similarly08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> to how sailfish-fpd/sailfish-fpd-slave-binder are available,08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> for the next release? Even if possibly incompatible with other08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> devices, they would be of great use with ports whose08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> architecture is close to the ones of the SFOS X supported08:06
rainemak#info <voidanix> devices (Qualcomm in general).08:06
rainemakHopefully alignment is better now Keto ;-)08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Guess you’re referring to public OBS repositories. In theory that08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> should be doable. Difference to sailfish-fpd /08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> sailfish-fpd-slave-binder is that those are based on binder08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> interface whereas VoLTE is not based on similar common interface.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Rather being hardware specific. So logically VoLTE belongs to08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> adaptation repository. That said, let’s see what we could do.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> This was added to our internal issue tracker as well.08:06
direc85[m]My first thought was that perhaps a common interface could be built on top of the adaptation packages.08:08
rainemakAs far as I understand, those VoLTE packages are not necessarily easy make adaptation agnostic08:08
voidanix[m]thank you for the update; i raised this because we recently got a FOSS volte implementation on android08:08
voidanix[m]you can find the code at
rainemakI vaguely remember that there were some fundamental differences between xperia 10 II and xperia 10 III versions08:09
nephros#info Peter G., late community lurker08:10
rainemakAfter next adaptation after xperia 10 III I'd assume that common interface idea would become clearer08:10
rainemak#info <<voidanix> Thank you for the update; i raised this because we recently got a FOSS volte implementation on android08:11
rainemak#info <voidanix> you can find the code at
ExTechOprainemak Does this difference have any connection to the way Xperia 10 III does not have functional echo cancellation in voice communication?08:11
voidanix[m]ExTechOp, no, that should be related to broken ACDB08:11
rainemakExTechOp, I doubt it have08:11
flypigvoidanix[m], the Android implementation looks interesting, but the repo is a bit sparse on details. Is there any more info about it anywhere?08:12
rainemak3 minutes08:12
voidanix[m]flypig not yet, the first volte calls on samsung w/ custom ROM were done very recently08:12
rainemakvoidanix[m], I agree with flypig. Indeed looks interesting.08:12
voidanix[m]after it becomes stable, community could use this for ports through some middleware08:13
flypigOkay, so I guess it's a work-in-progress. Hopefully more info soon then!08:13
direc85[m]Does anyone know if any other FOSS mobile OS has a working VoLTE? Is there a possibility of joining forces?08:14
rainemak#info <voidanix> The first volte calls on samsung w/ custom ROM were done very recently with FOSS volte implementation on Android08:14
voidanix[m]i have heard ubports was working on it very hard some time ago, no idea what happened to that effort08:14
flypigCertainly UBports is working on something, but I'm not sure of the current status.08:14
rainemakub ports had plans some time back but haven't followed that progress08:14
rainemakvoidanix[m], faster :-)08:15
flypigditto :)08:15
rainemakI think that's about it. Good discussion. Thank you.08:16
rainemakLet's move on to next topic08:16
rainemak#topic Status of OpenSSL (5mins -- asked by voidanix)08:16
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Status of OpenSSL (5mins -- asked by voidanix) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:16
rainemak#info <voidanix> OpenSSL 1.1.1 has reached EOL in September this year. Is Jolla08:16
rainemak#info <voidanix> already working internally on an upgrade to the latest 3.1 (or08:16
rainemak#info <voidanix> even better, 3.2) version? If not, should we expect it for the08:16
rainemak#info <voidanix> release following the next one?08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> Yes, we’re preparing & working on OpenSSL 3.1 upgrade, and target08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> is to get it for the next release. We have done a great amount of08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> package updates due to various reasons. With the updated packages08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> hopefully, we are not hitting too many builds errors when removing08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> deprecated OpenSSL 1.0 functions. Fixing this is a requirement to08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> go to 3.1. If we miss the next release, then target would be the08:16
rainemak#info <Jolla> release after next.08:16
voidanix[m]this is awesome, thank you; you guys should consider putting up WIP/draft PRs or just another branch for extra transparency08:18
direc85[m]I would like to also poke at Sailfish SDK installer :)08:18
rubdos[m](Whisperfishers are whisteling innocently in the back of the room, vendoring OpenSSL like it's on Christmas sale)08:19
nephrosBTW, OpenSSL 1.1.1 does get security updates for paying customers. Like Redhat.08:19
rainemakCertainly voidanix[m], transparency is good and may inspire others to help with the efforts.08:21
voidanix[m]that also prevents these kind of questions on community meetings ;)08:21
direc85[m]Happy to hear there's a lot of updates coming up - that means less technical debt!08:22
rainemakI think this was a good question08:22
ViGedirec85[m]: The SDK installer is a different story. The reason it hasn't been updated (yet) is that it has to work on all three platforms. And switching to a more recent openssl version requires updating ifw, which is always a lot of work.08:22
rainemaktime to move one...08:22
rainemakNext topic is close to me heart as I earlier promised to look into it. Hopefully this time we can unblock the development. Thank you rubdos for pushing this. Let's keep the dialog open. Took a liberty to extend the next topic to 10mins.08:22
rainemak#topic cross-packages (10mins -- asked by rubdos and direc85)08:23
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "cross-packages (10mins -- asked by rubdos and direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> Since 2022-12-14, several packages (including rust and cargo) have08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> build dependencies on cross-{armv7hl,aarch64}-{gcc,binutils,as,glibc}08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> and some more. I assume some refactoring has been done in the08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> packaging, since before that time, we could build rust etc.08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> ourselves on the Platform SDK. These packages are nowhere to be08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> found, nor can we find a way to build them ourselves, currently.08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> This makes it difficult to contribute patches to Rust (and gcc08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> and gecko, cc flypig), especially in terms of testing the08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> resulting compiler.08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos>08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> Would it be possible for Jolla to provide us with some insight,08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> sources and/or binaries for these missing dependencies? We have08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> asked mal on IRC a few times, to which the understandable answer08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> was that he could test the build on OBS. This is however not a08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> sustainable process, especially since we currently don’t get our08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> hands on the resulting 1.72 compiler.08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos>08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> rainemak already said in the previous meeting to have a look at08:23
rainemak#info <rubdos> this, but I’d like to formalize the request here. Thank you!08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> Short answer, yes it is possible that we provide insight. Whilst we08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> were looking into this we noticed that testing the OBS build was08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> ok. As answer ended up being too long to irc meeting, we posted it08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> to the forum already. That should be a good baseline to continue08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> the discussion.08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> Due to this question, we should create an article to the08:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> out of this explanation. Please do not hesitate08:24
rainemak#info <Jolla> to reach for example rainemak in some channel if you’re still08:24
rainemak#info <Jolla> facing issues.08:24
rainemakI think we should fork the community meeting reply out to a separate thread and continue updating there08:24
rainemakalternatively or even parallel, we create the first article that would be a baseline08:25
rubdos[m]Oh I could've done my homework 22 hours ago08:25
direc85[m]Same here..!08:26
rainemakrubdos[m], I tested on rustc tarball building with the instructions... and at least that looked good08:26
rainemakno worries rubdos[m] & direc85[m]08:26
rubdos[m]Bit weird that you have to revert the cross compiler buildrequires patch (which I also tried, by they way, but possibly on a too old SDK)08:27
rubdos[m]Thanks for the answer!08:27
rainemakthat cross buildreq is for OBS only08:28
rubdos[m]Maybe it's an idea to keep the README up-to-date with build instructions in the rust repo? I think it'd make even more sense there than on docs.sailfishos.org08:28
rainemakidea was that we put also big notes to the spec directly next to the block08:28
rubdos[m]rainemak: That's quite unfortunate, honestly. It makes me think that there's a discrepancy between what OBS uses to build vs. what we can use to build.08:29
rubdos[m]rainemak: That's a good start I think :)08:29
rainemakrubdos[m], this is on the same magnitude level as xulrunner08:29
rainemakand some insights are easily needed08:29
rainemakrubdos[m], I like the idea of repo README as well08:30
rainemak#action <Jolla> Create an article to the regarding this topic08:30
direc85[m]That's quite a reply indeed! I'll have to go through it with though later today and try it out.08:30
rainemakIt's time to move on08:31
flypigThanks also for linking to the dumb package building instructions. That always causes a mess for me with sfdk.08:31
rubdos[m]This sounds like we might have Whisperfish on 1.72 by EONW, that would be very helpful. We might stop shipping OpenSSL 1.1.1 even! Thanks, let's move on :)08:31
rainemakNext topic was raised already to the previous meeting by cquence but as a bit late submission. So, let's cover it now.08:31
rainemak#topic What are the plans to enable 5G connectivity? (5mins -- asked by TNZ & cquence)08:31
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "What are the plans to enable 5G connectivity? (5mins -- asked by TNZ & cquence) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:31
rainemak#info <cquence> I remember some work taking place a while ago. Any update you08:32
rainemak#info <cquence> can share would be great! P.S. Well done on the restructuring08:32
rainemak#info <cquence> and fair winds ahead! I probably won’t be able to attend due to08:32
rainemak#info <cquence> work commitments but will read the logs afterwards.08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> There are 3-5 major stories which we’d still like to sort out for08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> the next release and 5G is one of them. So far 5G works on08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> Sailfish OS side but AppSupport plugin is not yet finalized. Half08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> cooked version is bad as that would break mobile data with08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> AppSupport. If we miss the next release, then target would be the08:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> release after next.08:32
rubdos[m]That's a very concrete and hopeful reply, I would say.08:33
flypigAre any of the 5G changes in open repos? I'm just thinking knowing this would help to follow along (I'm assuming the AppSupport changes won't be).08:33
direc85[m]That's indeed a motivating reply to read - along with the previous ones!08:34
rainemakflypig, I guess some went already in way back08:34
rainemakon the enabler side afair08:35
flypigrainemak, thanks; I guess there's nothing particular to look at then. But this will be a wonderful update when it drops :)08:35
rainemakfor example08:35
flypigNice; thank you!08:36
rainemakthis is similar
flypigIt looks like magic to me :)08:37
voidanix[m]surprised these PRs haven't been mentioned anywhere AFAIK08:38
rainemaklet's move to the open PR discussion.. we can continue on the general discussion at the end08:38
flypigvoidanix[m], I'm certain they will have made it into dcaliste's roundups at some point.08:38
rainemakI guess damien picked them up back then08:38
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by Jolla)08:38
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:38
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?08:38
direc85[m]rainemak: perhaps #link the second PR too?08:39
direc85[m](a bit late tho)08:39
rainemakdirec85[m], I'll relink them to the general08:39
rainemakLet's move and safe time for the general discussion...08:41
rainemak#info <topic> Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by Jolla)08:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> No bug reports for this community meeting. Merry Christmas for the08:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> whole Community Bug Coordination Team and happy new year! You have08:42
rainemak#info <Jolla> done fantastic job the year!08:42
rainemak#info <topic> Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by Jolla)08:42
rainemaksailbot_, huhuu ?08:42
ExTechOpHe's Dead, Jim.08:43
rainemak# Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by Jolla)08:43
rainemak#topic Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by Jolla)08:43
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Bug reports by the community bug coordination team (5 min -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:43
rainemakit was my typo08:43
voidanix[m]rest in pepperoni sailbot :<08:43
rainemak#info <Jolla> No bug reports for this community meeting. Merry Christmas for the08:43
rainemak#info <Jolla> whole Community Bug Coordination Team and happy new year! You have08:43
rainemak#info <Jolla> done fantastic job the year!08:43
rainemakLet's move on to the general discussion.08:44
rainemak#topic General discussion (10 min)08:44
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "General discussion (10 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:44
flypigThe Taiga board from the Bug Coordination Team is a sight to behold.08:44
ExTechOpNow that we've been informed that several major changes and upgrades have been scheduled for the next release (or the one after that), is there a coarse schedule of when releases would occur?08:44
rainemak#info Some 5G related PRs08:44
flypigLet me just say what a phenomenal job the BCT done through the entire year. I take my hat off to them.08:44
ViGerainemak: Also this:
rainemakExTechOp, what I have learned is that whatever I'd say aloud it will get misinterpreted08:45
rainemakExTechOp, Thus, better not to say even a coarse schedule regarding the release08:46
ExTechOpFailing that, is there even a meta-date when you'd be able to tell when the next release is due?08:46
flypigThanks for all those links; that's quite a collection.08:46
flypigFrom the 5G discussion, I'm just now discovering (from looking at the code) that "5G NR" stands for "New Radio" (as opposed to 4G LTE = Long Term Evolution"). Makes me wonder what the acronym for 6G will be!08:46
ViGethe release will occur when it's ready ;)08:46
rainemakExTechOp, funny08:46
rainemak#info <Jolla> If you’re interested in testing CLAT with latest changes, please08:46
rainemak#info <Jolla> read from here
rainemak#info <Jolla> The release will occur when it's ready ;)08:47
flypigWe'll hold you to that!08:47
ExTechOpBy the way, I'd like to say thank you to the Jolla/Jollyboys team for staying through these difficult times, and hopefully 2024 will be more steady sailing through calmer waters!08:48
rainemakGenerally and frankly speaking, everybody is behaving well in the community meetings08:48
rainemakand tone of voice is good I think08:49
rainemak#info <Jolla> We wish you all Merry Christmas and Happy new year! This is the last community meeting of this year.08:50
direc85[m]I'm interested in the Rust update: There's 1.61.0 in master already so that's given, are there plans to get 1.72.1 merged for the next/next+1 release? If we can compile it ourselves now, that's more than enough really, just bumping that PR up (I typed too slow earlier)08:50
rubdos[m]Have a great end of year, all of you! Thanks for the meeting :)08:50
flypigExTechOp, totally agreed. Thanks to all the Jolla/Jollyboys team for all of your hard work this year.08:50
rainemakdirec85[m], I think we shouldn't rule out rust update from the next release - window is still open let's say08:51
rainemakdirec85[m], given that xulrunner builds fine against newer rust (1.72.1 even) and works and your tests are all fine => Probably could go in.08:53
rainemakxulrunner being the only platform dependency08:53
direc85[m]Great news!08:53
rubdos[m]I might try rebasing on 1.73/1.74 then even, because that will even ship an edition update iirc08:53
rubdos[m]That could be worth the effort...08:54
rubdos[m]Great news either way!08:54
direc85[m]Wasn't there LLVM update required too?08:54
rainemakrubdos[m], once there's something that builds, I can webhook it to the OBS08:54
rainemakI think mal poken LLVM update at point08:54
direc85[m]Oh, it's already at 14. Nice!08:54
rubdos[m]that, and I have LLVM 15 and 16 laying around iirc08:55
rainemakBefore final merry xmas wishes... let's schedule next community meeting08:55
direc85[m]Yes, those PR's are ready :)08:55
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)08:56
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21st Dec 2023)"08:56
rainemakProposing Thursday 11th January at 08:00am UTC.08:56
ExTechOpWorks4Me. I guess 2024-01-04 is too early, people still on Christmas vacation?08:57
direc85[m]That works for me08:57
rainemakWe have community newsletter planned for 4th Jan which might be a stretched goal.08:57
rainemakExTechOp, that was exactly behind thinking as well08:58
flypigI'm hoping for a flurry of app development over the Christmas break to go in the newsletter :)08:58
ExTechOpI've said this before, it'd be nice to have mosh available on Chum :-D09:00
rainemaksounds that we have a date for the first 2024 community meeting09:00
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th January 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-01-11T0800Z09:00
ExTechOpThank you, everyone!09:00
rainemakI want to thank you all on my behalf for this year! What a great community we have here!09:01
flypigThank you rainemak, all!09:01
voidanix[m]ditto, thanks for the meeting and merry xmas+happy new year09:01
direc85[m]Thank you! What a nice ending to the year!09:01
flypigYes, same. Merry Christmas everyone! Roll on 2024!09:01
ViGeMerry Christmas everyone! And a note to Santa, as you are reading the meeting notes, please take a note on how well everyone here behaves!09:02
direc85[m]Merry Christmas everyone! Let 2024 come, we're ready for it :)09:02
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Dec 21 09:03:16 2023 UTC.09:03
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 21st December 2023 at 08:00 UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:03
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th January 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-01-11T0800Z"09:12
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th January 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-01-11T0800Z"09:12

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