Thursday, 2022-10-13

ExTechOpGood morning!06:49
flypigGood morning!06:49
flypigIs everyone ready?06:58
ThaodanGood morning06:58
flypigOkay 0700 UTC (clocks haven't changed yet), let's get started.07:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 202207:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Oct 13 07:00:32 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:00
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings, look after yourselves, and each other.07:00
flypig(that's from Jerry Springer)07:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ jolla and chairperson07:01
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla07:02
abr#info Andrew Branson - sailor07:02
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä - community07:02
fridl#info fridlmue - community07:02
flypigGood that you're here for your question ExTechOp. Does anyone know whether PeegeeTips will join us today?07:03
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:03
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:03
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla07:06
pherjung#info pherjung, community07:06
flypigThanks everyone for joining us and making yourselves known. We've got a nice balance today :)07:06
flypigSince PeegeeTips isn't here, let's switch the questions around in case they're able to join a little later.07:07
flypig#topic Future plans for SFOS hardware (5 minutes -- asked by ExTechOp)07:07
*** sailbot changes topic to "Future plans for SFOS hardware (5 minutes -- asked by ExTechOp) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:07
flypig#info <ExTechOp> I am well aware that SFOS for the Xperia 10 III came available only fairly recently, and I am definitely **not** trying to whip the Jolla developers into a death march.07:07
flypig#info <ExTechOp> However, numerous Xperia series devices (including the Xperia 10 IV) are currently available for bootloader unlocking at Sony Open Devices.07:08
flypig#info <ExTechOp> Are there plans for ports, are hardware platforms other than Sony being considered? Can a brief summary and/or a coarse time scale be revealed?07:08
flypigThanks for your question ExTechOp. It was a little close to the meeting, but I got an answer, and one that I think would be the same if we delayed until the next meeting.07:09
flypig#info <Jolla> Currently we don't have any updates to share on potential upcoming ports.07:09
flypigThat's the full answer at this point ExTechOp. Sorry that I can't share more with you.07:09
ExTechOpThanks for pushing my question through, it's a bit of a shame you cannot share anything more.07:10
flypigYes, but I hope not too unexpected. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to hear your and others' opinions about the device space.07:11
ThaodanXperia 10 IV port is still work in progress on Sony's side.07:11
Thaodan#info Xperia 10 IV port is still work in progress on Sony's side.07:12
flypigThaodan, could you elaborate on what "work in progress" means?07:12
ThaodanUnfinished, early porting stage.07:13
flypigAnd specifically their AOSP release?07:13
ExTechOpSince the 10 III has had some issues on the Sony-supplied software side, do you give, and do they accept feedback on that? Are updates to that expected from Sony, and does SFOS a way to apply them?07:13
pherjungBy the way, there is this issue where we can list ported devices07:14
ThaodanWere we not talking about Sony-AOSP?07:14
flypigThaodan, yes, I'm just clarifying.07:15
ThaodanSony != Sony AOSP, the Android versions are unrelated.07:15
ThaodanXperia 1 III would be the same base and is not wip. It would be a good base to start porting for Xperia 10 IV.07:15
flypigThanks for that useful link pherjung.07:16
flypig#info <pherjung> By the way, there is this issue where we can list ported devices07:16
flypigIs anyone able to answer ExTechOp's query? I don't feel competent to give an accurate answer.07:17
ThaodanYes we regularly apply updates from Sony's side or contribute updates back to Sony such as kernel updates.07:18
flypig1 more min on this topic.07:19
ThaodanOr audio fixes thanks to sledges and Jusa's work.07:19
ThaodanI could go for hours probably.07:19
flypigThanks Thaodan, that's useful... but please don't ;)07:19
ExTechOpIn the case of 10 III, there are two Sony bug issues, networking and cameras. Any updates expected on these?07:19
ThaodanYes we accept feedback on that process in any case.07:19
ThaodanSome issues like those related to blobs are some that we can't do much about.07:20
flypigI think cameras we are in a position to work on as a community, it's not blob related.07:20
ExTechOpYes, by switching over to a non-buggy software interface, if I understood correctly?07:21
ThaodanYes we can try help on these things too.07:21
flypigExTechOp, exactly.07:21
ThaodanYes if possible.07:21
flypigI'm going to have to move us on, but we can return to it in the general discussion.07:21
ExTechOpThis is kinda what I was trying to ask, the Sony binary blob type software doesn't get feedback or updates?07:21
ThaodanIt does please look at the sony bugtracker as linked above.07:22
ThaodanBut yeah let's move on.07:22
flypigExTechOp, it's a good question, please hold that thought, we can return to it.07:22
flypig#topic Request an update from Jolla of any work work underway to improve general mobile-data compatibility for the 10iii with mobile network operators. (10 minutes -- asked by PeegeeTips)07:22
*** sailbot changes topic to "Request an update from Jolla of any work work underway to improve general mobile-data compatibility for the 10iii with mobile network operators. (10 minutes -- asked by PeegeeTips) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:22
flypig#info <PeegeeTips> Reading the forum on a regular basis i get the subjective sense that since the release of the 10iii support there has been a significant number of bug threads from new 10iii users reporting problems accessing mobile data from their mobile operator supplied sim.07:23
flypig#info <PeegeeTips> By 'significant' I mean more than I am used to seeing in recent years for other new hardware releases like the 10ii.07:23
flypig#info <PeegeeTips> What I would like is a comment from Jolla on whether they recognise a general compatibility problem that has resulted in a significant number of edge-cases where people have had problems with [their] mobile operator.07:23
flypig#info <PeegeeTips> And in addition, if there is a problem with more edge-case compatibility problems; how this is being addressed in upcoming releases like SFOS 4.5?07:23
flypigThat's the question. It's a shame PeegeeTips isn't able to join today, but here's the prepared answer.07:23
flypig#info <Jolla> There were significant changes made to the telephony stack in recent releases.07:24
flypig#info <Jolla> We continue to work to bring VoLTE support out of beta and to improve connectivity reliability overall. There were two telephony bugs fixed in the release and there are more in the pipeline.07:24
flypig#info <Jolla> This is part of a continual process. We touched on earlier fixes in your previous related question.07:24
flypig#info <Jolla> PeegeeTips, we're aware that you're experiencing a particular issue with Talkmobile in the UK. Unfortunately we've not been able to get to the bottom of it, but hope we can work with you on it.07:24
flypig#info <Jolla> For anyone else wanting to help diagnose issues, please see this Zendesk article for how to collect oFono logs.07:24
flypigThat's the prepared answer.07:25
flypigWe have some time on this, but has anyone else experienced related issues?07:25
flypigIf PeegeeTips isn't here, and no one has other points to add we can move on early. I'll give it 2 more mins just in case.07:29
flypigAlright, if silence means others haven't experienced these issues, then that's a good thing. Time to move on.07:31
flypig#topic Open PR discussion (10 min -- asked by jolla)07:31
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (10 min -- asked by jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:31
flypig#info <jolla> We didn't have any PRs raised in advance of the meeting. Feel free to raise any now if you'd like to discuss them.07:31
flypigIt seems there are no pressing to raise here; that's good I think. I'll give it 1 more min just in case.07:36
flypigOkay, moving on...07:37
flypig#topic Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung)07:37
*** sailbot changes topic to "Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:37
flypig#info <jolla> The Community Bug Coordination Team have done a superb job once again this fortnight.07:37
flypig#info <Jolla> As a result of their work, we now have:07:37
flypig#info <Jolla> - 6 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".07:37
flypig#info <Jolla> - 2 bug reports tagged as "fixed".07:37
flypig#info <Jolla> - 2 marked as duplicates and closed.07:38
flypig#info <Jolla> - 2 closed as being unrelated to Sailfish OS.07:38
flypigOn top of that, there is the new Bugger! tool which I see being increasingly used.07:38
flypigSince we have representatives of the Bug Coordination Team here, would you mind giving a quick update on how you see the State of the Bug Union?07:38
flypigpherjung, thilo[m]?07:40
thilo[m]Bug reports increased in quality recently, thats nice to see07:40
thilo[m]Bugger and the better description in the template helped a lot, i think07:40
flypigThat is indeed good, and a credit to your efforts as well.07:41
thilo[m]What i am missing is a larger cheatsheet for basic diagnosing07:41
flypigYou mean, things that a user should do before posting a bug, or info to collect to accompany a bug?07:42
flypigCollecting logs, that kind of thing?07:42
thilo[m]Working on it tho. But i/we spend considerable time trying to remember where again those logs were to find ;) thus help on my forum wiki post regarding debugging is appreciated ;)07:42
thilo[m]Logs etc07:42
flypigCould you share a link please?07:43
flypig#info <thilo[m]> i/we spend considerable time trying to remember where again those logs were to find ;) thus help on my forum wiki post regarding debugging is appreciated ;)07:43
flypigIt's shaping up to be a nice resource.07:44
flypigThanks for the summary thilo[m], and great work as always. Anything else to add on this topic?07:46
thilo[m]No :)07:46
flypigOkay, thanks again, let's open things out to General Discussion then.07:46
flypig#topic General discussion (20 min)07:46
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"07:46
ThaodanJust thanks for the awesome work they provide.07:46
flypigYes, seconded Thaodan.07:47
flypigThere is much appreciation amongst the sailors :)07:48
ExTechOpI'd like to bring up again network switching, which has always been a pain specially for Android applications running under SFOS. I know people that for this reason just don't use wifi on SFOS, at all. Are long-term solutions for this problem being worked on?07:48
thilo[m]Thanks on behalf of the others as well :)07:48
flypigExTechOp, this is a good question, and useful feedback about people not using wifi. Can anyone shed some light on this?07:51
fridlI can, I do not use WiFi on my 10 II, as most of the time after some hours and network switches, the Android apps lose connection. Sometimes also the sailfish apps start to get trouble. Therefore I activate WiFi most often only for SFOS updates.07:52
fridlI know, that I can restart the services helps often, but still i the time between i miss notifications from android apps etc.07:53
flypigThanks fridl and sorry if it causes you trouble.07:56
fridlMy data plan has enough reserves ;-P07:57
fridlBut it would be so great to get that sorted out at some point.07:57
ExTechOpBut the main thing is, are the SFOS developers aware how much pain this issue causes people? I have Settings/System Utilities/Network restart always open to fix problems, occasionally even that isn't enough.07:57
abryeah, we get the same issues :)07:58
fridlExTechOp: That is true. I would, indeed, love to use wifi and start to also watch sometimes videos etc. on my phone.07:58
ExTechOpDo we have any idea how Android does this, apparently at least a bit more gracefully?07:58
abrthere are quite a few fixes for it coming in the next release that haven't been able to go out with the 4.4.0 bumps07:58
ExTechOpabr That's good to hear!07:59
abrbut there's no real single big fix can be done. we're mapping state between sfos and android, so it's a load of corner cases that need to be picked off one by one07:59
abrit's a lot better now in devel than it was, but still not perfect07:59
abri leave wifi on until i get an issue right now anyway08:00
flypigThanks abr, that's a really helpful addition.08:02
thilo[m]i think its good for the empathy of the community to hear that the devs actually use the devices and live through the same frustration :)08:02
abrcontrary to some opinions i've seen, the vast majority of sailors use sfos on their daily devices.08:03
ThaodanJust some use less or more time with AAS.08:03
abrthose who don't have to be a bit secretive about it or else they get distainful looks08:03
thilo[m]maybe you should do a feature where that becomes more clear to the community08:03
ThaodanFor my self I mostly only use it for banking apps.08:03
flypigI definitely think abr is right. We experience the same things as the community because we're using Sailfish OS all the time.08:05
abrthe only difference is that we're on the latest code. for better and definitely for worse.08:05
ExTechOp"Eat your own dog food" or if you're feeling a bit more morbid, "drinking the Kool-Aid" :-D08:05
fridlwith the pros and cons to the dev / cbeta access, so no waiting for the releases...08:06
flypigExTechOp, yeah, a bit of both ;)08:06
thilo[m]yeah i definatley know the pleasures and frustrations of using your own products08:06
flypigJust 2 more mins before we wrap up.08:06
thilo[m]maybe you could talk a bit about that in an interview section in a community news @flypig?08:07
flypigthilo[m], it's a really great idea. Let's see what can be done :)08:07
ViGePros of using your own product: If there's an issue, you can fix it. Cons of using your own product: If there's an issue you have to fix it.08:07
thilo[m]that would be interesting, maybe sailors tell how it is to be on dev devices and how they get around with sfos, and what fixes make it into the os because they have certain struggles in real live, etc...08:07
ThaodanViGe: That hits hard because it's true..08:08
thilo[m]ViGe: exactly....08:08
flypigViGe, haha :)08:08
thilo[m]the problem is, that you also experience that in your free time i imagine08:08
thilo[m]saturday night at 11 when your code doesnt work... yet again08:08
flypigI wanted to do a regular feature on the apps sailors use on their devices. We did do a games section like that.08:08
thilo[m]oh nice, that sounds cool. The stuff you come up with is really cool always flypig :)08:09
flypigThanks thilo[m] :)08:10
flypigExTechOp, fridl, since you raised this topic of Android connectivity, perhaps you could bring it up again after the next release to share your experiences again?08:10
fridlflypig: I can do that. Hope to remind it (and remind to turn wifi on again ;-P )08:11
flypigGreat, thanks fridl :)08:11
flypigTime is up I'm afraid. Thank you everyone for the really nice discussion here.08:11
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:11
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022)"08:11
flypigProposing Thursday 27th October at 07:00am UTC08:11
ExTechOpWhen I visited last year for the Christmas party, and first saw the 10 III demo device, there was Signal on it. Moving Signal over to another device is a bit tricky, as the wifi method doesn't work with SFOS, and also accessing removable devices is a bit wonky. Is there anything that can be done about this?08:11
flypigHmmm. Sorry ExTechOp, I was too hasty.08:12
ExTechOp27th works 4 me.08:12
flypigIt's still before the clocks change, so no time change just yet.08:13
abrlast one though!08:13
flypigIndeed :)08:13
flypigAlright, 27th it is.08:13
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 27th October 2022 at 07:00am UTC: 2022-10-27T0700Z08:13
ThaodanJust use utc for the calendar events no time change needed.08:13
flypigThaodan, we do use UTC, but we actually want the meeting to stay at 10:00 Finnish time.08:14
flypigAnyway, have to wrap it up. Sorry for cutting off the discussion, but hope we can pick it up again!08:14
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Oct 13 08:14:54 2022 UTC.08:14
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 13th October 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:14
Thaodanflypig: ah forgot about that.08:15
flypigSorry about that ExTechOp, Thaodan.08:15
ExTechOpNo problem, was running late anyway.08:15
flypigThaodan, yes, it's not ideal. But we need to wait for the world to fix it I think.08:16
flypigExTechOp, you raised a valid and important question though.08:16
thilo[m]thanks for the nice meeting everyone, have a nice next 14-day period :)08:16
ExTechOpA fortnight.08:16
flypigThanks thilo[m], was great to have your input too.08:17
thilo[m]ah, thats what fortnight means :D never looked that up08:17
ExTechOpThanks everyone!08:17
flypigBi-weekly is unfortunately ambiguous.08:18
Crabsterthx #?, appreciated08:19
thilo[m]no, fortnight is a nice word. Also an interesting one ("From Middle English fourtenyght, fourtene nyght, ")
thilo[m]quite literally ;)08:20
flypigFrom now on, I'm only going to use "fourtenygh" ;)08:20
thilo[m]please do :)08:21
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 27th October 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:21
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